Episode 122: Nancy Cavey

Nancy Cavey

Intro: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Pretty powerful podcast where powerful women are interviewed every week to share real inspiring stories. And incredible insight to help women or anyone break the barriers, be a part of innovation, shatter the glass ceiling, and dominate to the top of their sport industry, or life's mission.

Join us as we celebrate exceptional women and step into our power. And now here's your host, Angela Gennari. Hello.

Angela Gennari: Welcome to another episode of a pretty powerful podcast. My name is Angela Gennari, and today I'm here with Nancy Cavey. Hi Nancy.

Nancy Cavey: Hey, how are you?

Angela Gennari: I am wonderful. Thank you so much. So Nancy Cavey is a dedicated attorney with personal insight into the challenges of disability claims inspired by her father's battle with leukemia, licensed in Florida and dc.

She represents clients nationwide, advocates for fair treatment, and has [00:01:00] authored consumer friendly disability guides. Amazing. So what made you wanna get into law?

Nancy Cavey: Well, what, uh, made me get into the law was the fact that, uh, my father, uh, became disabled while I was, uh, growing up. Uh, uh, he was a World War II veteran.

He was a John Wayne type of guy, diagnosed as having leukemia when I was in junior high school. And I watched him make this difficult decision to continue to work until my senior year of high school. And at that point, wow, he really understood that he could no longer, um. Work. Uh, and the family owned an insurance brokerage business in Baltimore, Maryland.

He had had the foresight to purchase a, uh, disability insurance policy.

Both: Wow. Um,

Nancy Cavey: hoping that if he became disabled, he would have this policy as a way to provide for his family. So the day I graduated from high school, we moved from Maryland to uh, Florida. He stopped working and he applied for [00:02:00] not only his.

Disability insurance benefits, but his social security disability benefits. Mm-hmm. And I saw the fight that he had to get, the disability benefits that he had paid for in, in terms of his insurance benefits and the social security disability benefits, uh, because he had contributed like we all do to the social security system.

So he was my inspiration to become a lawyer.

Angela Gennari: Good for you. Isn't it amazing how when you see somebody have to struggle through, you want to solve that problem for him and you, you, you see people who struggle with different issues and immediately it gives you that fire within you to want to help and make a difference.

And I, I assume you certainly are making a difference right now, so I'm sure he'd be very proud. Thank you. So watching him in high school I'm sure was pretty traumatic. Uh, your father being sick and dealing with everything that he had to deal with medically, but you know, also trying to care for the family.

I.

Nancy Cavey: Yeah. I mean, obviously our, our lives [00:03:00] were turned upside down. Mm-hmm. Um, the things that I, I did, uh, was I actually graduated from college in three years with the hope that he would see me graduate, but he died several weeks before.

Both: Oh,

Nancy Cavey: wow. Before I graduated, but he knew I was going to law school and that was enough for me to know that, that he knew that I was going to try to make a difference in people's lives, just like he had made a difference in people's lives, in his, his business.

Angela Gennari: Absolutely. So, I, I can relate to this a little because my, uh, when I was married, my. Husband at the time we had a young child and he was diagnosed with, um, stage three, uh, Hodgkin's lymphoma. Yeah. So just watching someone you care about struggle with an illness, but also, you know, especially when it's kind of that man of the house and you know, they, they still feel this duty to care for their family.

It's heartbreaking, but you see incredible resilience through it as well.

Nancy Cavey: Right. [00:04:00] Yeah. It is a journey not only for the person who is ill and is seeing the change in their identity, their role within the, yeah, the family, but then, you know, you as family members become resilient. Mm-hmm. And do what you have to do, uh, to try to keep the family intact, but also not to be chained, if you will, to what's happening so that you can see there are, there are things that you can do, but there's a limit

Both: mm-hmm.

As you

Nancy Cavey: can do. And you some at some point have to move on with your life. And that's what they would want you to do, and, and that, that dichotomy can be tough.

Angela Gennari: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I love that you're out there fighting for people who have disabilities and have social security claims because it, it can be daunting for someone who goes into that system or that process and having to fight through all the bureaucracy.

So, um, I, I assume it is no [00:05:00] small task for, for you to combat that on a daily basis. I.

Nancy Cavey: That's, that's my job. Yeah.

Angela Gennari: Yeah. I imagine that's gotta be tough. Um, so tell me, uh, some of the things that you love about what you do and, um, what, tell me the, some of the, some of the great cases that you've been able to, to, uh, to get good relu resolution for.

Nancy Cavey: Well, I think, um, my job is first and foremost to be an educator.

Both: Mm-hmm.

Nancy Cavey: Educate my clients about the disability claims process, be it a social security claim, be it an insurance disability claim. 'cause I want my clients and the public to understand. What are the elements that you have to prove? What, what, how do we go about proving what we have to prove?

Uh, and so that's why I've written a number of con consumer books. That's why I have a, a podcast called Winning Isn't Easy because I think education is really, I. Crucial. And then there's teamwork [00:06:00] element, uh, because I can't win a case without the cooperation, not only of my client, but of their physicians.

So I love medical legal issues. I like to look at a set of facts and say, well, this is what I have to prove and this is how we're gonna go about proving what we have to prove. And this is the process. Do I have your agreement as to how we're going to go about. Doing this because once we, if you will reach an agreement as to how this case is gonna go down and how I want to deal with the, the things that, that might be thrown at us during the course of the case, then I'm out there basically, I kind of think of myself, if you will, as I'm a bit of a, a playwright.

So I take this scenario, I write the play. How it's gonna unfold. Mm-hmm. I direct it and in part I'm an actor, but I'm also directing my [00:07:00] clients, uh, in terms of how we're going to go about trying to get their, their benefits, um, and, and be a, a guide, if you will, for them. Because my job, as I see it, is not only to educate, but it's to help them get the disability benefits they deserve while they are.

Dealing with their personal circumstances and their medical situation, having been in that place, I understand that that's where their attention and their focus should be, not on the legal aspects of what's happening in their lives.

Angela Gennari: I. Right. Right. So do you find it's becoming more difficult or do you, like, I, I'm just curious 'cause of course we're, with everything happening with United Healthcare and all the insurance companies right now, there, there's a lot of doctors coming out and talking about how difficult it is to get approvals lately.

Do you find that to be the case? Yeah.

Nancy Cavey: So I'm gonna give you a quick education. Um, the employers will offer employees benefits. Yes. They don't have to. Mm-hmm.

Both: But in the

Nancy Cavey: United States, [00:08:00] that's generally governed if you purchase it through your employer, a law called the ERISA Statute, employer Retirement Income Security Act.

Um, it's a law that was written by the, the Congress rules and regulations were enacted, but courts have interpreted it. Mm-hmm. And there is a horrible case in the health field that basically says. That the insurance company has the discretion to make the decision. Uh, about entitlement to benefits, and it's quite frankly, very hard to get through the appeals process.

Worse yet, the only way I get paid as a lawyer is if you were to hire me and pay me, and I know you can't pay me because you can't pay the medical bill, or potentially the doctor assigns me their benefits. But there are anti assignment clauses in most. Insurance contracts that prevent a doctor from assigning their rights to their fee to me so that I can afford to handle it.

Wow. And, and so this is unfortunately in our political environment, uh, a situation [00:09:00] that should be resolved, but we've got the countervailing forces of the insurance industry. Mm-hmm. And we have the politics that go with. With, with the world, if you will. So,

Angela Gennari: right, right. It just seems wrong that an insurance company who are not medical professionals get to determine what medical procedures are valid.

Nancy Cavey: Well, so, um, the, the disability insurance companies, the group health carriers will have doctors on staff, nurses and staffs. I call them. Liar for hire physicians, Uhhuh. Yeah. We're there to, not to approve claims, but to deny claims and to create a reason that would justify the claims denial. Wow. So in the context of a disability insurance claim, there are things in the policy called a discretionary clause that says, we, the insurance company, have the right to choose who we're gonna believe.

We can believe, wow, we're doctors. We can believe our doctors. And by the [00:10:00] way, if we create all these reasons that justify this claims denial, you, the court have a set of golden handcuffs and you're not legally entitled or allowed to reverse our decision. So it's context of ERISA disability, ERISA group health benefits.

We are on an incredibly unlevel playing field. Mm-hmm. And that can be solved. On a federal basis by the Congress to say, Hey, by the way, we are going to prohibit the use of discretionary clauses. We are going to require, uh, or allow lawyers to be paid a fee for litigating these cases Now. There are state laws that prohibit these discretionary clauses, but there's no uniform, you know, there's no uniformity.

California prohibits them. Illinois prohibits them. Florida allows them, so interesting part, part of the thing I do as a lawyer is I look at that insurance contract and [00:11:00] say, well, what state law governs? Well, geez, it's Florida. I'll use a legal term. We're screwed.

Both: Yeah.

Nancy Cavey: Well, by the way, maybe I can, maybe I have a cause of action there that we can sue.

So this lack of uniformity in what's supposed to be a uniform statute, again, is a problem that could, should, it could and should be solved.

Angela Gennari: You know, the state to state, you know, that that's one of the things that makes the United States great is that we have, you know, states that can make their own rules and, and regulations in some cases, but then when you have different rules in different states, it does become very complicated.

And everything from, you know, I own a security company and our security licensing is different from state to state. Yeah. Alcohol laws are different from state to state legal. State to state. And so even just crossing a border, you know, into one other state, we, we operate in seven states and that's seven completely different sets of laws, seven completely different sets of regulations, and you almost need to be full-time focused on [00:12:00] making sure that you're in compliance in that particular state.

So absolutely, it's very challenging.

Nancy Cavey: Yes it is. It is. Now, the social security claims process is a federal, also ultimately federal.

Both: Mm-hmm. But it's,

Nancy Cavey: and it's got more uniformity in terms of the rules and regulations. But nonetheless, even in the social security world, there are, um. There are a number of problems in disability determinations.

It's taking where you live as long as three years if you have to go through the entire claims process,

Both: which

Nancy Cavey: years. Which is absolutely outrageous. So again, a problem that could be solved both on the state level and the federal level, an initial social security claim and a request for reconsideration is decided at the state level.

The funding, however, comes from the state legislatures, and there are states that will not adequately fund the staffing so that you have people at Disability Determination Services, DDS, [00:13:00] who are making the decision timely. Uh, it takes a year. Florida. Wow. For after we file a claim to get a claims examiner assigned to the claim.

Wow. Really? Really. So if, if state legislators really were interested in helping people who were disabled and who had contributed to the Social Security disability system

Both: mm-hmm.

Nancy Cavey: They would fund. In their state budget, appropriate funding for the local social security offices to hire and train claims representatives so that these claims could be timely adjudicated.

I mean, it's hard for me to say to a client, and I have this conversation every day. By the way, if we have to go through this process, you may not have a source of income for two to three years.

Angela Gennari: Wow. And after they've paid so long into social security and, and I mean, that's one thing that, you know, uh, so I'm Gen X and we think about it all the time.

Like, will there be anything left? Will there be anything left for the millennials? Like [00:14:00] they keep dipping into Social security, which was supposed to not be a source for the government to be able to use, to allocate to other things. It was supposed to be just for social security. And, you know, we're all worried that that's not going to be the case when we need it one day.

Right. And I guess making it so difficult is a way that they're. Kind of ensuring that those funds stay there is, they're just gonna make it really difficult to get it in the first place

Nancy Cavey: and it's gonna, you know, potentially get worse, so.

Angela Gennari: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's really interesting. I, I don't know what's going to happen with the, uh, with everything that's happening with social security and insurance, but I feel like we're coming to a, a kind of a come to Jesus kind of moment where things are going to have to change.

'cause it's gotten so bad and it's become, you know, so controversial that I just don't imagine we're gonna be able, people are going to have to, they're going to rise up against this.

Nancy Cavey: Well, there's gotta be a will.

Angela Gennari: Mm-hmm.

Nancy Cavey: And more importantly, we have to have responsive legislators from both parties. From all parties who [00:15:00] recognize that.

That Americans have contributed, for example, to the social security system.

Both: Mm-hmm.

Nancy Cavey: And it's required. It's been our whole lives of working. Right. So it's not like we're getting something for free. It's, we have contributed to this system. And I will tell you, in my many years of practice, maybe a handful of cases I really thought were.

You know, bogus or fraud. And of course I wouldn't represent them. Sure. But for someone to say, you know, I've lived my life following the golden rule, if you will, I've contributed to society. I'm a breadwinner. I'm proud of who I am, and now for reasons that aren't my fault, I have a disability and I can't work anymore.

Both: Mm-hmm.

Nancy Cavey: For them to come to that decision. To say, I need help, and then to face the gauntlet. Um, I think it's [00:16:00] awful. I, I think Franklin Roosevelt once said that the measure of a society is how they treat the disabled. Yes.

Angela Gennari: Wouldn't you agree? Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's how you treat those who can't, you know, give you anything back.

I always say that that's the measure of character, right? Measure of character is doing something for someone with absolutely no expectation in return, that they're gonna be able to do something for you in return.

Nancy Cavey: Yep. 'cause it's the right thing to do,

Angela Gennari: right? Mm-hmm. That's integrity and character. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, that's, it's, it's shameful what's happening and, but I don't know that, you know, as much as we talk about the United States being so awful with insurance and social security, I.

I don't see it getting any better anywhere else. I mean, I hear, you know, I talk to, I have some friends who live in the UK and they were telling me some of the horror stories in the UK about their system. And, you know, their, their taxing right now is astronomical,

Nancy Cavey: right? I mean, o obviously, uh, there [00:17:00] is no quote unquote perfect health system and as you know, healthcare is expensive.

And so it will take a significant part of our GDP if we're gonna provide. Healthcare, a universal healthcare system. Mm-hmm. I don't, that's the answer. All I'm saying is that there should be a level and fair playing field.

Angela Gennari: Exactly.

Nancy Cavey: Yeah. To me, that's, that's the, that's the issue. Um, if my employer offers insurances, I do to my employees, then I want them to have a level playing field.

So if they need those benefits that I'm paying for,

Both: mm-hmm.

Nancy Cavey: That they get fair treatment and they get the treatment that they require. Without all these games, an emphasis on profit and shareholder return.

Angela Gennari: Absolutely. I mean, like as an employer, healthcare is one of my biggest expenses. I mean, when we, when we're providing benefits for our employees, you know, I wanted, I wanted the best plan possible for them.

So, I mean, it's a [00:18:00] very low deductible, it's a great plan. It's, you know, it's something that I really shopped hard to find the right plan that would not, you know, be financially. Uh, hard on anyone else. Um, so we pay a lot of money for insurance and I just got, you know, feedback this week that one of my employees is getting denied for a, a necessary surgery.

And I'm like, but why? Like, there's, it doesn't make sense. You know, we pay a fortune for this

Nancy Cavey: and, well, for what

Angela Gennari: it's worth,

Nancy Cavey: you should be on the phone with your agent. Yelling and saying, would you? Because there's an appeal process under the ERISA statute for your employee to appeal, and they have to meet the time deadlines.

Mm. So your employee needs to be following the ERISA rules and regulations and timely appeal be, you know, you should be on the phone with your agent. I mean, employers such as both of us are, are rare that we pay for. A hundred percent of our group insurance and want our employees to be covered. What's frustrating, I think, for both of us is the lack of [00:19:00] transparency.

Mm-hmm. The lack of honesty, the lack of let's do what's right for our, our policy holder, uh, employee patients, as opposed to, what is this in terms of our profit, my bonus. Equation.

Angela Gennari: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think, I think that's where we're becoming disillusioned with the whole, you know, insurance industry right now.

And I think a big part of what needs to happen, and I don't mind fair competition in the work and, you know, I'm, I'm. I own a business, I'm okay with capitalism, but I think there also has to be a fair playing field. Like you were saying, you know, we need to break up the monopolies. We can't let insurance companies dictate medical decisions for doctors.

Um, and I think doctors need to be in charge of the doctor stuff and insurance companies need to be in, in charge of the insurance stuff. And, you know, neither shall cross.

Both: So

Angela Gennari: I don't. So I think, you know, if we break up some of the monopolies and we lo we, we stop allowing them to have, uh, you know, full control of the entire process from, you know, having [00:20:00] pharmaceuticals to, you know, that we have to have different companies owning each of these.

And those companies cannot be owned by one, you know, common person or entity, you know, that gets to dictate the decisions and, and own the whole process. That's not fair.

Nancy Cavey: So my origin is, is I was a worker's comp attorney for many years. I still am a worker's comp attorney, and I did a lot of lobbying, uh, writing legislation and rules.

And, uh, one of the things that I learned, much to my surprise is that at least in the state of Florida, in the rate making process, the insurance company's profit was actually built into the, to the rate really. Yes, so you and I would love as employers to be able to quote a price that a person has to pay for because they have to have the insurance that includes our profit.

I'll sign up for that one every day.

Angela Gennari: Wow. Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, if we can, if we can get somebody, you know, our legislators to start making a difference, you know, uh, on the [00:21:00] foundation of how companies are run, you know, set laws in place where if you own an insurance company, any entity that you're affiliated with cannot also own a pharmaceutical company and cannot also own a, uh.

Drugstore and cannot also own a hospital and cannot also own anything that is affiliated, you know, with the process. And, but yeah, the, you know, workers' comp is one where I, I feel like, you know, for an employer, we've, we've thankfully only had a work, a couple of workers' comp claims in the 10 years that I've owned the business.

But it, in doing so, it's a pretty cumbersome process. Yes. And they make it very challenging to collect anything. Um, and then they really punish the employers.

Nancy Cavey: Yes, and it goes both ways.

Angela Gennari: Mm-hmm.

Nancy Cavey: I represent a lot of self-insured employers, municipalities, hospitals, large employers, but I've also represented injured employees, so I've seen in my career both sides of the.

Of the fence, if you will. And there are [00:22:00] problems for both players. And in fact, there shouldn't be problems with players we know that are bad actors. They're bad actors on the employer side. They're bad actors on the employee side.

Both: Mm-hmm. But that doesn't

Nancy Cavey: mean you throw everybody into a big pot and treat everybody the same.

So again, I, I've written a lot of legislation, done a lot of work with legislators, and honest to goodness, I could tell you. You could put, you could put a, a lawyer, two lawyers on opposite sides of the fence in a elevator, and we could go up to the top floor and we could tell you what the solution to all these problems were.

But then you throw into this elevator all of the people who have an interest and what is a simple solution becomes. N nothing.

Angela Gennari: Yeah. Everybody feels like they need to win, right? Like their side needs to, to win. And you know, there's a book that I love called Never Split the Difference. Um, oh yes. And, and I absolutely love this book, but one of the things that I find [00:23:00] really interesting is, you know, we can all come out of this and we're not all fighting for the same thing.

You know, we, when we're negotiating a contract. There are things in that contract that really matter to me, but not everything really matters to me, right? Like, you can't, you can't say everything matters. It doesn't because then you're never gonna walk away feeling like you actually won, right? Because you can't get everything you want.

And then the other person gets nothing that they want, that, that that doesn't work, right? Because that, that fractures relationships.

Nancy Cavey: Yeah. There's a good book called Getting to Yes. It's an old book. Okay. As a lawyer, what I did is I took a mediation class and could have become a mediator. I didn't do that because I wanted to be a better litigator.

I wanted to understand better how I could, 'cause I have to mediate cases.

Both: Yeah.

Nancy Cavey: How, how I could approach the other side to create a win-win situation without. Losing the things that were important to my client or to me mm-hmm. In the course of the, of the mediations. So for what it's [00:24:00] worth. Read, read the, you know, getting to Yes.

And even think about taking a mediation class because I think it'll make you a better negotiator.

Angela Gennari: I did take a media, yeah. I'm actually a certified mediator, so I did that a while ago. But it's one of the reasons is because, you know, I wanna be able to go to a table and negotiate properly without feeling like I'm burning bridges every time I get to the table.

So, you know, I think it's really important that you're, you're being mindful of what is it that matters to the other person. Um. There was I in my previous life, life before, um, having this company, I owned a travel agency and we did like meeting planning and, and when I would go negotiate a, you know, a like a meeting contract, you know, like let's just say I was, you know, hosting, I was looking for a meeting space in hotel rooms for.

A convention, I would, I would go to the, the hotel and I would say, look, you know, these three things are really important to my client. And then, you know, I would hear from the hotel, okay, but I can't change, like let [00:25:00] the, you know, our rev par, which is, you know, revenue per, uh, available room. So our rev par has to be this, or else it takes us out of the class of hotels that we're in.

So for example, a Ritz Carlton needs to stay in the Ritz Carlton's group, right? So the Four Seasons and. Um, St. Regis. So they, they need to stay in that class of, of rape, so they have to maintain a certain rate in order to maintain that class or else they're breaking out and they're having to compete against the Hiltons and the Marriotts and so forth.

And so rate integrity is really important to them. But for my client, it doesn't matter. Okay. So they'll pay a little bit more on the rate, but then we'll negotiate free meeting space, a reduced food and beverage. At the end of the day, they're still getting what they want in terms of a lower overall contract price, but the hotels being able to maintain the rate integrity that they need.

Nancy Cavey: Cool. Well, you know how to negotiate. Mm-hmm. And you know, life is a series of negotiations and so I, as strange as this may [00:26:00] sound. I think people should read books about mediation and negotiation. Yeah. We negotiate with our husband who's gonna cook dinner, we negotiate with our kids. Sort of, you know, so, so yeah, it, it, we live in a transactional world that involves negotiation and so I think everyone should be taking some basic.

Um, mediation or, or negotiations, uh, skills classes.

Angela Gennari: I wholeheartedly agree. Wholeheartedly agree with you. So do you find that most of your cases go to trial or do they get settled out of court when it comes to that? I.

Nancy Cavey: Uh, it depends on the nature of the case. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, in the social security world, if their claims get denied at the first or second stage, we have to go to a hearing.

Mm-hmm. And those cases, you know, at that stage will go to a hearing, uh, in terms of ERISA disability because of that. That, uh, get outta jail card, discretionary clause, depending on [00:27:00] where you're at, it's very hard to win. So a lot of those cases get, uh, resolved, uh, in workers' comp. It just kind of, you know, depends on what the issues are and, um, um.

Uh, you know who the parties are, who the judges are. So again, it really, it, it's, it's case dependent. It's fact dependent. It is judge dependent, it's insurance company dependent. All of those things will, will factor in. But you know, at any time, I always prepare my cases as if I'm going to trial.

Both: Mm-hmm.

Nancy Cavey: And if they settle, that's great.

If they don't settle, then I'm ready to go to trial. So that's my, that's my approach.

Angela Gennari: Do you find that it's, it's more beneficial for the, for your clients if you go to trial versus not go to trial? Or does it, is it a case by case basis?

Nancy Cavey: It is a case by case basis. I mean, I will tell you, I have lost cases that I was positive I was gonna win.

Mm-hmm. One cases that I was positive [00:28:00] I was gonna lose. Interesting. Yeah, because you never know what happens at trial. Um. Y you, you've, I'm sure people have watched TV trial shows. Uh, it, it doesn't always go like that. Yeah, Joan doesn't go like that. But, you know, sometimes our clients don't make good witnesses.

Sometimes the evidence doesn't come in the way we want. Sometimes we fall in love with our cases when we shouldn't be falling in love with our cases. Sometimes the judge has gotten up on the wrong side of the bed. Mm-hmm. So, you know, the beauty of mediation is that you can control the result. You may not be thoroughly happy with the result, but when you go to trial it's, you know, you throw it up in the air and you don't, generally don't always know.

I mean, part of my job is I'm a legal bookie. I dunno if you know that my, a lawyer is gonna be looking at a case, looking at the facts, looking at the law, looking at the judge. [00:29:00] Looking at the opposing counsel, and my job is to say, look, I think you have an X percentage chance of winning. This is what's at stake.

This is what the range is to settle this case. What do you wanna do? Do you want the certainty of a result that you may not be completely happy with, but you've driven that result? Or do you wanna. You know, throw it up in the air. I'm a trial lawyer. I love to try cases. If my client says, we're gonna try the case, it's like, oh boy, I'm gonna have fun.

But that's just, that's not necessarily my job. At the end of the day, my job is to find a result for my client that they can live with. I didn't necessarily happy but that they can live with because litigation is stressful. I love the stress. They don't necessarily love the stress and they want a certain result.

So. So again, at the end of the day, in, in the most contexts context, it's about certainty. In social security, I [00:30:00] don't get to negotiate generally except for maybe the period of benefits. It's either I win it or I lose it, and I gotta go try it. So again, it depends on the court. Depends on the case. Mm-hmm.

Angela Gennari: Yeah, absolutely. So I wanna kind of pivot over to the disability side right now because I know, you know, disability, a, DA is all a really huge thing that we all need to be discussing, um, in the world right now. And. My company, we do, uh, security and event stopping. So we work in a lot of stadiums and arenas and special events and concerts, and we, we make all of our employees go through a DA and, um, service animal training because I want them to be well versed in it.

I want them to understand what you can say and what you cannot say. I want them to have a comfortability around, you know, the issues that, you know, uh, our disabled patrons are facing and, and to understand, you know, and empathize, um, so that we can better take care of them. So, um, where do you see the most need for improvement in that?[00:31:00]

Nancy Cavey: Well, I'm not an a DA attorney, but I'm going to answer that question mm-hmm. In common sense. Um, in the course of our lives, we meet people of different. Uh, ethnic groups, different religions, different physical capabilities, different cognitive capabilities, and I think particularly in the security area, you've gotta balance that against your primary function, which is security.

Right. Um, and I'm, I'm absolutely pleased that you're giving your, your staff that kind of train training where I really think the, the. Balance needs to be is those who have mental issues. Mm.

Both: Um,

Nancy Cavey: or who have conditions that are not necessarily physically present like

Both: mm-hmm.

Nancy Cavey: TBI people, people who have disabilities that you can't see, but yet are functional in terms of physically functional [00:32:00] as you start to interact with them verbally or cognitively.

And I think. Sometimes in the security field, I have seen people jump to conclusions without stepping back and saying, what am I dealing with here? Who am I dealing with? Am I missing something about this particular person and why they're acting the way they are? I. Balancing that, of course, against your, your, your, your job, your duty, uh, to not only the public, but your client, the security concerns.

So I would say, um, I would like to see more balance in security companies dealing with people who have emotional or mental. Impairments. Um, you know, for example, I represent a lot of people who have seizure disorders and or neurological disorders, and sometimes people will view them as being combative, when in fact that is a manifestation of [00:33:00] their condition.

You know, so if they have a neurological impairment, you're gonna maybe have problems walking, which may lead somebody to think that they're intoxicated,

Angela Gennari: right? Mm-hmm.

Nancy Cavey: They may have slurred speech that may lead people to think they're intoxicated, when in fact that's a manifestation of the disease. So I would say if you see something like that, stop a thinking, stop a second and think, you know, is there something I'm missing here?

And what, how does that impact my obligation as a security officer? I.

Angela Gennari: Absolutely. We, we really try to be mindful of that because we deal with, you know, the, the mass public, you know, in these concerts and sporting events. And I mean, these are, you have thousands of people coming through an event at any given time, and we try our best to accommodate them, but it's a constant education of like, Hey, you know, we, we have two other certifications.

Besides the a DA and the service animal training. And, um, we, it's, one is called sensory inclusion, which is where you learn how to, you know, anyone who has a sensory issue, a D [00:34:00] or um, excuse me, uh, autism or PTSD, you know, who could be triggered by fireworks or la loud bangs, or, you know, any kind of laser lights that are going on.

Um, so we wanna make sure that we know how to properly care for them. You don't just go grab them. That can trigger them more, you know, and then. And then in other circumstances we do, uh, team training, which is, uh, techniques and effective alcohol management. And we talk about deescalation and, you know, understanding the signs of intoxication versus could be a diabetic thing, right?

You know, they could be low blood sugar. And so having the same, same, you know, kind of reactions to things. So you just wanna really know what you're looking at. And sometimes it's hard to make those snap judgements when you're, when you have thousands of people and you're like, you know, you need to react quickly.

I,

Nancy Cavey: I understand that, and congratulations to you for doing that.

Angela Gennari: Thank you. But yeah, it's about having the sensitivity to understand that, you know, we don't know what somebody is dealing with. We really don't. And so you have to make the best decision. And I love Maya Angelou. [00:35:00] Um, Maya Angelou has a quote, you know, you be, you do the best you can with what you know, and when you know better, you do better.

And so we're constantly trying to like, okay, well now we know what that looks like. Now we know how to react.

Nancy Cavey: But that's fantastic. And I'm sure there's a lot of ongoing training that you're doing of your staff.

Angela Gennari: Yeah, we try. We try. I just feel like there, you know, it's like constantly evolving. Just like with law, like with everything.

Everything is constantly evolving and we're just trying to learn to, to do the best we can and, uh, you know, constantly stay on top of what, what's out there. So tell me about a case that you won that you are particularly proud of.

Both: Uh,

Nancy Cavey: let me see. Um, well, I'll give you an example of a case. Um, I do a lot of video, educational video.

I post a video a day. Mm-hmm. And I try to make it disease focused. So, uh, I posted a video about, uh, a visual, a rare [00:36:00] visual condition. I got a call from a, a gentleman in New York, I'm in Florida, uh, and he was a union member. Um. Actually working on high rises.

Both: Oh.

Nancy Cavey: Obviously as his visual impairment got worse, his visual acuity impacted his ability to work and he didn't want to, uh, either get injured or injure his fellow workers, but his union pension required that he get social security disability benefits.

So I. He said, look, you know, you're the only lawyer I've seen who has a video about this. I wanna talk with you. And we talked. We came up with a strategy and he said, okay, I'm moving from New York to Florida. And I said, what? You know, you don't need to do that. I can represent you. No, no, no. I'm moving to Florida.

He moved his whole family to Florida so that he could be close to me.

Both: Wow.

Nancy Cavey: Ultimately we had to go to trial because social Security, despite his visual issues, denied his claim at step one and step two.

Both: Geez. And when he got

Nancy Cavey: to [00:37:00] trial, he did a beautiful job. We did a beautiful job, and I had him explain to the judge what it looked like for him to look straight to the right, to the left up, down.

You know, using, uh, examples of like a bottle, what it looked like if you were gonna, what he was looking through as if he was looking through a Coke bottle. Wow. He used his, he had, he had lost his visual acuity, but his words told the story that we needed to tell so that the judge looked not only at the, at the, you know, what the record said about his loss of visual acuity.

Mm-hmm. But that literally in his own mind. In his own mind's eye, could see what my client was going through every day with his visual issues. And so to me that's a perfect example of education, a strategy synergy with your client and, and telling your story in a way [00:38:00] that's compelling, but consistent with what it is you have to prove to get the disability benefits you deserve.

So to me that's, that's one of the, the wins I'm most proud of.

Angela Gennari: That's amazing. Well, I'm sure he is very thankful for you as well, so that's, that's wonderful. So, just to pivot again, um, so who inspires you? Who

Nancy Cavey: inspires me? Um, I'm pretty self inspired. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Um, so let me, so let me give you a format for this.

I think of life as an upside down triangle. Okay?

Both: Okay.

Nancy Cavey: At the top, I. Of this triangle are principles. In the middle of the triangle are rules, and at the bottom there is decisions. So I have basic principles that I, I I operate on. And from those principles, there are rules that govern my [00:39:00] behavior. So it makes decision making fairly easy.

So do I need an inspiration? Um, no, not necessarily. I think that I, I like to see examples of people who have, um, overcome challenges or have sites that I can apply to the way that I live my life. That principles, um, rules, decision, uh, format. So

Angela Gennari: I like that. That's very interesting. I like the analogy as well, so.

That's very good. So, uh, you come across as a very powerful, very analytical woman. Um, but I imagine there has been a time that you've given your power away at some point. So can you ever, can you tell me about a time that you've given your power away?

Nancy Cavey: So I'm gonna smile, uh, uh, and I'm gonna answer that, uh, two ways.

Um, I know too many people who don't think they're [00:40:00] enough. They have the imposter. Um. For those who are the audience who have that, I want you to raise your hand. Mm-hmm. And I am going to self anoint, self appoint you as being more than enough.

Angela Gennari: Oh, I love that.

Nancy Cavey: Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm. You don't need anybody to do that, but I've just done it for you.

Okay. So you are self ano, self-appointed. You are more than what you ever need. Now that kinda leads us into the power issue because people who don't necessarily think that, that, that think that they're an imposter, I think let other people negatively influence their behavior because they don't think they're enough.

Both: Mm-hmm.

Nancy Cavey: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. But once you know that you're enough, once you live like you're enough, I think the question is not giving your power away because you are powerful. The question is how you use your power. So I don't ever give away my power, but I modulate my power. Mm-hmm. What do [00:41:00] I mean?

In our lives, we're confronted with situations that we can, uh, deal with all sorts of emotions, which are powerful emotions, but I'm the one who determines my response to whatever the situation is. I. I can have a, I can give my way, my power away to somebody to make a decision for them, but not for me. I can, I can listen and give suggestions, which is giving my power or some of my insights to them that they do what they wanna do with.

So I think the, the answer to your question is once you recognize that you are powerful and we are all powerful, the question is how you use that power.

Both: Yeah, so

Nancy Cavey: I don't give away my power. I modulate my power based on the circumstances and try to listen calmly, repeat what I hear, and then say, well, have you [00:42:00] thought of this or this, or that.

Trying to lead people to whatever their powerful solution is, not my powerful solution. So it's leading, not controlling.

Angela Gennari: I love that. So yeah, I do some public speaking and every time I'm in a room, um, with young women, and I see this with young women especially, um, early twenties or to early thirties, is anytime I ask them, what is the, the thing that holds you back?

And almost 100% of the time I get somebody who says imposter syndrome. And it's just such a, you know, you feel this like, do I belong in this room? And the answer is always yes. If you are in the room. There's a reason, right? That's right. You, you are in that room for a reason. And so I always say the best thing you can do is add value.

If you wanna know if you belong in a room, just add value. Even if that adding value is asking a question. Like you don't have to be the smartest person in the room. You don't have to have all the insight, but [00:43:00] if you just ask questions, there's a. Bunch of other people sitting in that same room who are probably thinking the same thing.

And because you had the power to raise your hand and ask a question, I think it just adds a lot of value to the, to the conversation. I.

Nancy Cavey: There's a fantastic book that I read a number of years ago called Psycho-Cybernetics by Dr. Max. Uh, well, uh, Maltz. Maltz was a plastic surgeon and he would have people come to him and say, you know, I'm ugly.

Fix my nose. Or, and, and so as a plastic surgeon, he would perform the surgery and he would meet the patients postoperatively and they would say, he would say, well, how are you doing? And they'd say, I'm still ugly, even though he had fixed their nose. And what he ultimately realized was it was the, the reason that the PE-people still thought they were quote unquote ugly was their internal vision.

Both: Mm-hmm. Of the,

Nancy Cavey: that either they had created or others had created for them. [00:44:00] So I really would suggest that people, it's an old book, but buy it and read it because it will, I think, give you some really good insights as to why you think. About yourself? The w the way you do. What is that called again? It's called Psycho-Cybernetics.

Angela Gennari: Psycho-Cybernetics. Okay. I'll have to write. Let that one down. I've got two good book choices now. Suggestions.

Nancy Cavey: Yeah. Dr. Moltz, the other thing I, you know, I say to people to, you know, people who have the imposter syndrome is you are one, you are more than enough.

Both: Mm-hmm.

Nancy Cavey: But two, what is your vision for your life?

Both: Mm-hmm.

Nancy Cavey: A really good book called Vision. The Vivid Vision. Uh, I hate it, but I love it. I'm sure you as a business person have, have read this book. Um, but really it's kind of to articulate a one year, three year, five year, maybe kind of a lifetime where, where I'm here, but where do I wanna be? What is my vision?

For my life. Because once you know what your vision is, [00:45:00] then you can apply your, you know, the principles, the rules, the decision. But, but, and you're doing that in the framework of what's right for you, but not necessarily letting others direct you based on what they think you should be doing or the expectations they think you should be having of yourself.

Angela Gennari: Yeah, I think that's a, that's powerful is to, you know, I think the best time to figure out what you wanna do is when you're alone. You know, don't ask anyone else what do you think I should do? Because then you're, you're following someone else's dreams for you and you really need to figure that out through introspection and through really understanding, you know, who you are, what you value, and how you wanna spend your life.

And you know, I find so many times the biggest career changes. From people who followed somebody else's dream and then midway through their life, they're like, this isn't what I wanna be doing with my life. And so they take a massive 180 and they, they go into what they actually wanna do.

Nancy Cavey: And you made a really good point.

E even if, even if you have a vision, life is [00:46:00] not a straight line.

Both: Mm.

Nancy Cavey: It's, it's okay. And this is for like, part of being a lawyer, if the evidence is, goes the wrong way, I've gotta pivot. Yeah. So I'm always expecting that I'm going to have to pivot, but I pivot within the dream or, or a new dream. But it's also always based on the, this idea of, uh, principle rules and decisions.

Angela Gennari: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. The upside down triangle. I love it. Yeah. So. What advice would you give to your 18-year-old self? Um, you

Nancy Cavey: know, that's a, a, a good question. Um, I think that you need to have a sense of self.

Both: Mm-hmm.

Nancy Cavey: Which I had. Um, I sort of knew where I was going. Um, it wasn't straight. It was kind of zigzaggy.

I think the, [00:47:00] the primary piece of advice that I have for people is that at different points in your lives, there are going to be people who may come into your lives for 30 minutes or be there the rest of your lives who will make a difference, change your worldview. Uh, give you support, give you inspiration.

As I said, they may not be there long in your life, but the impact that they have. And so I can name a number of people in my life who have made differences at every stage of the case and have said to me something that challenged my thinking or my vision.

Both: Mm-hmm.

Nancy Cavey: So I think that you're not, don't expect that you're gonna know everything.

Look for people, mentors, uh, who you can trust to have your best interest, but measure what they're saying to you in terms of, of, you know, principal rules and the decision making process. If it doesn't sound right, [00:48:00] it probably isn't right. Mm-hmm. So I would say, you know, life's not straight. Have a vision.

Uh, I would say have people who. Uh, can be mentors to you or inspirations to you or who can show you the wrong way to do things, uh, and um, and just always live by whatever your principles are. Um. And that's the, you know, I, I think I learned all of that when I was about 18 because of what I had to go through.

Both: Mm-hmm.

Nancy Cavey: But I've gotten better at it. There were times when, you know, I didn't do the stuff I should have been doing, but, 'cause I got off track. But it was always, well, you know, I, I'm off track. I need to get myself back on track and this is what I need to do. Mm-hmm. Or I need to somebody. Yeah. It's like, you know, here, am I at here?

Am I at, what should I do? Gimme the pros. Gimme the cons. Yeah,

Angela Gennari: really good advice. And I, I agree. You know, just [00:49:00] having a great foundation is really, really important. And one of the things that you said in there really stuck out to me, and it was about, you know, learning from other people's mistakes. Um, one of my clients has something on their wall, and it's a quote, and I, I love this quote, but it says, um, smart people learn from their mistakes, but the smartest people learn from other people's mistakes.

And that's a really, really good way to put it, because, you know. I, I can be stubborn. Sometimes somebody will tell me, Hey, if you do this, X will happen. And I don't believe them and I do it anyway. And of course it's a horrible learning lesson. But you know, I try to do the same thing with my son. I don't think he should do this.

This is what's gonna happen and he has to learn from for himself. But I think he's learning now. It's a lot less expensive and traumatic when you learn from other people's mistakes.

Nancy Cavey: But I mean, you made a really good point. And that is a mistake. Isn't a mistake if you've learned something from it. Yes.

It's a learning lesson. Yes. And that's, that's how I think people need to think about it. But now, but if you make the mistake again, then [00:50:00]

Angela Gennari: then it's a choice. Yeah. Anything after the first mistake is a choice, is what I say. Yeah. Um, so this has been really insightful. So where can people find all of this great information that you have out there?

Uh, well, we have a YouTube

Nancy Cavey: channel. It's the KV Law, uh, channel, uh, my website, KV Law. Okay. Um, podcast is, uh, specific to ERISA disability. Uh, uh, it's called Winning Isn't Easy. We're gonna be launch, uh, I think next month, a Social Security Disability podcast. Uh, so, uh, also winning isn't easy, the Social Security version.

So. Uh, I'm all over the place, so you shouldn't have time finding me.

Angela Gennari: All right. Very good. And, uh, you can also find Nancy on the pretty powerful podcast.com. Um, so this has been really insightful and I've just learned a ton and I've really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. So I have one more question for you.

What do you wish [00:51:00] more people knew? I wish

Nancy Cavey: people knew, uh, that they have inner strength and inner character, um, and that they need to see themselves as being a human who makes mistakes, but who can learn. Mm-hmm. But the ability to do those things and needs to do those things without all of the. The chatter that's around them, you know, you know what's on your phone, what's on your computer, you know, uh, uh, I think that reflection, solitude, treating yourself with respect are, are the really key foundations to forming, uh, a happy and healthy life.

Yeah,

Angela Gennari: absolutely. I agree with you. Well, thank you so much again, Nancy. Um, it's been a true pleasure and, um, [00:52:00] wishing you incredible success, um, with everyone that you're out there helping and, uh, fighting the good fight. So thank you for everything you're doing. Great. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. And we look forward to seeing you guys on the next episode of the Pretty Powerful Podcast.

Wishing everybody a tremendously successful day. Bye-bye.

Intro: Thank you for joining our guests on the pretty powerful podcast, and we hope you've gained new insight and learn from exceptional women. Remember to subscribe or check out this and all episodes on pretty powerful podcast.com. Visit us next time, and until then, step into your own power.