Episode 123: Paige Arnof-Fenn

Paige Arnof-Fenn

Intro: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Pretty powerful podcast where powerful women are interviewed every week to share real inspiring stories and incredible insight to help women or anyone break the barriers, be a part of innovation, shatter the glass ceiling, and dominate to the top of their sport industry, or life's mission.

Join us as we celebrate exceptional women and step into our power. And now here's your host, Angela Gennari.

Angela Gennari: Hello. Welcome to another episode of the Pretty Powerful podcast. My name is Angela Gennari, and today I'm here with Paige Arnof Finn. Hi Paige. Hey Angela, thanks for having me. Thank you so much for being here.

I'm looking forward to chatting. Um, Paige is the founder and CEO of global branding and digital marketing firm, mavens and Mobils based in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Her clients include Microsoft Virgin, the New York Times company, Colgate Venture-backed startups, as well as [00:01:00] nonprofit organizations. She graduated from Stanford University and Harvard Business School.

Paige serves on several boards as a popular speaker and columnist who has written for Entrepreneur and Forbes. So impressive. I'm very excited to talk with you. Well, I'm excited to chat today too. So one of the things that, um, I think is just so valuable is your focus on building brands and creating a personal brand, because I think that is one of the most critical things we can do, especially in this digital world that's constantly changing, is building a brand.

So what made you wanna get into that industry?

Paige Arnof-Fenn: So I, I started my marketing career in 1990 as a summer intern at Proctor and Gamble. Nice. So I've been doing this a long time. Mm-hmm. And p and g is probably one of the most recognized brands in the world. Sure. They're the maker of a lot of products in your house that you use every day.

Um, [00:02:00] crest, toothpaste, tied deterGennarit, bounty, paper towels, charm and toilet paper. I mean, you name it, the sham shampoo.

Both: Mm-hmm.

Paige Arnof-Fenn: Ole cosmetic ole cream and, uh, you know, facial products, um, Pantene shampoo, you name it. Mm-hmm. They, I think they are number one or number two in every category they compete in. Wow.

Um, and I, after that I worked at Coca-Cola, which I think is the most recognized brand in the world. Coke is sold in about 200 countries around the world. So I feel like I got educated on marketing and branding from some of the most world-class superior, uh, brands that, that are out there. And I guess if you fast forward and look at what we all went through during Covid

Both: mm-hmm.

I

Paige Arnof-Fenn: think if we learned anything during that pandemic period, if you're not a [00:03:00] brand, you're invisible.

Both: Mm-hmm. And

Paige Arnof-Fenn: so, you know, for my clients and my business, it was a real kick in the pants for everybody to kind of. You know, take a breath, hit the pause button and say like, wait a minute. You know, how, how is my brand being perceived?

What do people think about it? What, you know, what do they know? What do they not know? When do they think of me? Why do they think of me? So again, if we, if we learned anything, um, your online presence really matters. And especially in this extreme situation where the brick and mortar place is closed and, you know, we lived on Zoom and on the phone.

Mm-hmm. Um, it's really taken on kind of a life of its own. So branding is just a core part of my business now and. You know, I think if you're not a brand, you're a commodity and then you compete on price. And that's a bad place to be because [00:04:00] if all you can do is lower your price, it's not gonna be a sustainable business.

Angela Gennari: Well, and then it becomes a race to the bottom. Right. Got it. 'cause you know, everybody can do that. You don't have to be exceptional to lower your price. And then you're competing against people who may, may not hold the same standards, may not have the same overhead, may be cutting corners, and you've created a situation where you can never go lower.

Somebody's always gonna beat you out on price. And whether that's through. You know, like I said, cutting corners or, or not doing training. You know, we, we see that all the time in our industry. You know, security companies have long been doing that. Um, it is a race to the bottom and so it is our personal brand.

It is, it is our company brand that sets us apart and we kind of live by, you know, we have a certain set of rules, obligations and values, and we don't compromise on them. And that is our brand. And so therefore we don't do the price thing because that, that's, you're exactly right. You, if you don't have a brand, that's what you're gonna go [00:05:00] to is price.

Paige Arnof-Fenn: And as the leader of the company with the brand, your brand matters too. The company brand and the personal brand. Oh yeah. They need to sync up and be consistent. Yes. To tell the best story. So it's really important. And I think a lot of people, I. Um, you know, people will come to me and say, you know, I'm not LeBron James.

I'm not Beyonce, or Taylor Swift, or Serena Williams. Like, I'm not really a brand. I'm not famous, you know, I'm just selling, you know, x, y, Z product or service. But I hope by the time people listen to this podcast and hear us, they'll understand everybody's a brand today. We're all walking around with these phones in our pockets mm-hmm.

That are platforms for you to get your story out there. And every, you know, social media site you're on, anytime you're blogging or [00:06:00] tweeting or you know, when you are meeting people in person, your brand really matters. So, yeah. You know, you don't have to be famous to be a brand today if you're online, if you're meeting with people, um, if you're on a podcast, if you're having lunch or coffee.

Your brand really matters because if someone gets introduced to you or reaches out to you over email, people are making that calculation like, is it worth my time to follow up? Who is this person? They'll Google you. They Google you or Google me. Our names are probably unique enough that it's really gonna be us.

Both: Mm-hmm.

Paige Arnof-Fenn: And it's really gonna be our company. So if what comes back is questionable or a lot of digital dirt, that is not gonna bode well for people wanting to do business with you or wanting to take the time to grab coffee or invite you onto their podcast. So your brand really matters.

Angela Gennari: Yeah, it really does.

And you know people, even it, it doesn't matter what [00:07:00] segment you're in, it doesn't matter what industry they're going to look you up. And decide whether or not you feel like you're trustworthy. Right. So, and especially in anyone who's doing any kind of consulting or is a leader in business or on a board or you know, anyone applying for a job.

You know, one of the things that we do when we're looking at our potential candidates is we do their, we, we look up their name. I wanna know what is associated with them because I need to do it as an employer because I know our clients are gonna do it. Right. And so, exactly. It's important that we know we're

Paige Arnof-Fenn: aligned with the right people and people buy products and services from people that they know, like, and trust.

Both: Yes. And

Paige Arnof-Fenn: so what comes back

Both: mm-hmm. Needs

Paige Arnof-Fenn: to be consistent and tell a good story. Mm-hmm. And you know, if you're one kind of person on one platform and a different kind of person on a different platform. You know, that's gonna raise a lot of questions and that's not a good way to build a trustworthy brand.

Mm-hmm. But, you [00:08:00] know, businesses are the same. If every time you walked into a McDonald's or a Starbucks, if it looked different, if the offerings were different, if the employees treated you differently, you'd be very confused. And it wouldn't be kind of that safe space for you to go and just relax and get a coffee or a lunch or whatever.

Um, it's the same with your business, you know? Mm-hmm. If you wanna know that the person that shows up their account person, that the leadership is a good reflection on them. If they hire you, they wanna be, you know, confident that you're gonna deliver on the promises that you make. And you're someone that can stand behind your word and you know, if what they find out online is a lot of bad press, uh, a lot of.

Questions about your integrity or mm-hmm. You

Both: know,

Paige Arnof-Fenn: that they're gonna go on and talk to someone else, they're not gonna [00:09:00] follow up because it's, it's just raises, again, it's, it raises too many questions and does not build the confidence and trust you need to associate with those products and services.

Angela Gennari: Yeah. Well, and a lot of times the first impression people get of you is online. Right. Especially in this Zoom culture. Right. So they're, they're gonna meet you on Zoom or they're gonna, you know, look you up long before they meet you in person. So it doesn't matter how charismatic you are and how wonderful of a person and how warm your greeting is, if you have a bad online presence, it's only gonna translate into a negative impression of you prior to ever even meeting you.

Paige Arnof-Fenn: And you know, when people send you an invitation on LinkedIn, I. A lot of times you look and see what context do we have in common?

Both: Mm-hmm. Just

Paige Arnof-Fenn: to get a sense of like, who is this person? Right. And you know, it could be someone that you know socially or you know, professionally in common. And I do a, again, background checks.

Before you hire someone, [00:10:00] before you go meet with someone, you can pick up the phone and say, you know, I noticed you're also connected to Angela. I'm just curious, how do you know her? What do you think of her? And if somebody says, actually I must have met her at a networking event, I don't even remember her.

I don't know her that well at all, so I can't say anything. Okay, well that's fine. And then you'd go down the next, and maybe it's my college roommate or my next door neighbor, and I say, oh, how do you know Angela? You know, I met her and she's kind of weird and she spams me all the time. I get these weird emails from her and she puts me on these lists that I don't sign up for.

Now when somebody says that your antenna goes up and you go like, uh, I dunno that I need to be associated with this person. Absolutely. But if every, everyone you talk to goes, oh my god, she is amazing. I was blown, you know, she has this amazing security company and I can't even tell you, she saved me so many times.

Mm-hmm. For eldest business to her, she has [00:11:00] never let me down and I just, I adore her. That's gonna leave a really good impression. Absolutely. Your brand is what people say and how they talk about you when you're not in the room.

Both: Mm-hmm.

Paige Arnof-Fenn: And you know, if you get that kind of, um, testimonial or those kind of, you know, people just love you and they think you're smart and great to work with and fun and funny.

That leaves an amazing impression.

Angela Gennari: It sure does. Well, and it tells people what to expect, right? Because I think the other thing is, is I wanna know if I need to be guarded when I meet somebody. I need to know if you know this is somebody that I, you know, can make jokes with, can I laugh with, you know, are they gonna expect me to be super dressed up and very proper?

Are they pretty casual? And you know, like there's so much that goes into a personal brand and who you are, and I try to always be. When I was in my twenties, I think I, I constantly had this feeling like I [00:12:00] needed to portray myself a certain way, right? Like it's, a lot of, a lot of younger people feel like this, right?

Like it's that imposter syndrome. It's the fake it. So you make it mentality. And what's so funny is once you get up to our age, people are like, I am who I am. Take it or leave it, right? So and so there you, you remove all of those walls, but you become 10 times more relatable and 10 times more sincere. And that vulnerability and, and that authenticity is what really allows people to connect with you.

Because people will tell you, when they met me in my twenties, I was very hard to connect with. But in my forties, I'm easier to connect with because I am who I am, right? I don't have a need to put on a facade of being something else. And I don't have these, these exterior walls built up where you feel like you can't get close to me.

Paige Arnof-Fenn: Yeah. I think the sooner you get comfortable in your own skin the better. Mm-hmm. And I think that's one of the best parts of aging, frankly. Yeah, absolutely. I feel [00:13:00] like you know what you're good at, you know what lane you're in and you're not competing with everybody. You know, you kind of know this is, you know, this is what I'm great at.

This is my sweet spot. You know, and if, if people don't want to hire you, or don't wanna work with you in a, you know, in an interview, I always think, you know, if I'd much rather find out now than later, like it's, it's almost like a gift. If you end up, you know, for whatever reason, not connecting, they hire another firm, they hire another employee who they think is to better fit.

It probably saved you a lot of angst and agita. Mm-hmm. Maybe it was just too forced, you know, it was a square peg and a round hole. Mm-hmm. And it frees you up to find a better match and a better connection down the road. And I just, you know, I remember when I started my company [00:14:00] 23 years ago, one of my very first clients, I was so excited because he signed a $10,000 a month retainer for a year contract.

And I thought, oh my God, this is such a big deal. A six figure client. I am so excited. And the guy was such a jerk. Oh my God. He was just terrible. And he hired us to do PR for him. And my PR team was doing just an amazing job, getting him some terrific press locally and nationally. He was showing up in like, you know, national, uh, newspapers and magazine.

Oh wow. I mean, he, he, it, it almost looked too easy 'cause they are so good at what they do and they just got him quoted and popping up everywhere as this successful entrepreneur. And the more press we got him, the bigger jerk he became. It's like he was believing all of the press. And it's [00:15:00] like, you know, we're, we're, we're good at what we do, but like, you know, it's, you don't, they don't really know you, whatever, but it's great if it's getting your phone to ring and getting people on your website.

And so on the third month of our 12 month agreement, um, the team was all at his office and we were just about to start the meeting and. I run a, a company with people all over the world and the PR people happen to be based in New York and I'm based in Boston and the client was based in Boston, but the New York team was gonna come for a face-to-face meeting.

This is well before the Zoom world. Yeah. So, um, before we started, I said to him, you know, before we jump into the aGennarida, it would be great if you could just, you know, talk to the team about your experience these first few months that you've gotten so much a plus media. I mean, you must be overwhelmed. I'm sure you wanna thank the [00:16:00] team and just, you know, we can just start there and then we'll jump into the aGennarida.

And he looked at me and he was like, thank the team. Why would I do that? I'm paying you. And I thought, wow. Oh my God, this guy is a bigger jerk. I gave him credit for, he is worse than I imagined. And it dawned on me that, you know, we were only three months into the agreement and he still hadn't paid us for the second month and he was already being slow to pay and he was just not a nice guy.

And I just had this epiphany sitting at the table that like everybody that knows, this man knows he's a jerk. And they're all seeing this great press. And my biggest fear at that moment, this is like in the first six months of my company, was all these local businessmen would like. Ask 'em who's doing your press?

You're getting a lot of great press. And they, and in their mind they're thinking, I'm a jerk, but I'm not as big of a jerk as this guy. I bet imagine what [00:17:00] they could do for me. And I thought, oh my God, I'm gonna end up building a company with a bunch of clients who I can't stand. Mm. That is not why I hung out my own shingle.

This is not the kind of work I wanna attract. And at the end of the meeting, I said to him, um, if you could go back to your desk and grab your checkbook and let's get caught up on payments and we're gonna finish this month. But after that, I think we're gonna shake hands and part ways, I think, um, we're, I don't, I'm not sure we're the right team for you.

And he was like taken aback and he said, are you firing me as a client? And I thought, yeah, I guess I am. And I said, I just don't really think we're the right team. I, I feel like. Um, you'll be better served by someone else. And um, it was one of the best kind of feelings when we walked out of his office with the check in hand.

Um, I felt like a weight had been lifted [00:18:00] and it really sent a signal to the team that I had their back. I'm not gonna put up with people that treat them poorly and it wasn't worth the money. I mean, he was paying us not quickly. Yeah. And we were probably servicing him at a higher level than he even paid for and he didn't appreciate it.

Mm-hmm. And the results were fantastic. And I thought, again, I don't wanna be a magnet for all these people that just wanna be in the press and they're not good people. That's not why I am doing this. I wanna work with and for people I respect and admire and enjoy and have fun with, and people that I can laugh with.

And I thought, you know, the buck stops here and. I guess it is kind of a feng shui thing. It's like when you free up the clutter, it opens up space for other things to come into your life, and we replace the business very quickly with much better clients. [00:19:00] And, you know, I, it was like a real wake up call that, you know, you don't have to work for everybody when it's your business and your name's on the door, whether the company is named after you or not.

If you're the, the, the CEO and the, the president of the company, it's up to you. And if you put up with it. Then you can't complain. And if you want to be different, then make better decisions.

Angela Gennari: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I've had those too, where, you know, and, and it's always the ones that kind of beat you up from the beginning on price, on contract terms, on all these things.

That always has to be their way. And they're not really being any, they're not taking any consideration of you and you running a business too. You know, they're running a business, but you are also running a business for sure. And they have a complete disregard for that part of it. Those are the ones that I find in the contract stage from the very beginning.

Okay. If it's this challenging at this point, what's gonna happen when we actually work together? [00:20:00] And so I've learned to pull away early. And not even go to contract because I, I can already see, like, they don't respect our business practices. They, they're not going to have any regard for our payment terms.

They're, you know, they're gonna, they're gonna fight us for everything. And those are not the clients that I wanna work with because it's those clients that take up 80% of your time, and they're usually the ones who don't pay on time, who, you know, complain constantly. You can never do anything. Right. And yeah, those are just, they're not worth it.

You know, it's, it's, I've walked away from quite a few of those as well.

Paige Arnof-Fenn: And you know, like you, I don't wanna be a vendor. I want to be a partner. I want, I want it to be a win-win. I want your businesses to succeed, and I want my team to succeed too. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And if we're not a good match. I'd rather know it sooner versus later.

And again, that wisdom kind of comes from experience and age. Those are not decisions that you make with confidence in your twenties. [00:21:00] And when you're in your twenties, you're probably working for a bigger company. You're not a decision maker. The buck does not stop with you. And you're learning about client management skills and you're learning what you like and don't like and what you're good at and not good at.

But after a few decades, you've earned it, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. A

Angela Gennari: hundred percent. So let's kind of circle back to this personal brand. 'cause I'm curious to know from an expert, um, how do you suggest if somebody is new to the industry or they just, you know, they just got outta college or they're switching careers, how do you start building a personal brand?

Paige Arnof-Fenn: So, you know, it starts from the inside out. Mm-hmm. And you start small and then you grow. So think about what you wanna be known for, um, what, you know, you can actually do kind of a, a little market research project. Yeah. When you talk to people and you [00:22:00] say, what are my strengths? When you have, what kind of problem?

When do you think of me first? What do you think I'm good at? What do you think? You know? And if you're starting to hear consistent themes emerge, you know, of people that know you personally, people that know you professionally, you get a sense of kind of where you play. Like, okay, this is my, this is my turf.

Both: Mm-hmm. Um,

Paige Arnof-Fenn: and you know, if you're not liking the feedback that you hear. Some people see you as kind of a tough personality, having a bad temper, being very snarky when you think you're being funny. Um, that's a, a sign too that maybe your image, your brand is not what you want it to be and not what you thought it is.

So, you know, you're planting seeds and you want those seeds to be consistent. So don't spread yourself too [00:23:00] thin. I would say, you know, pick the things that are really, um, that reflect. Very, you know, strongly on you. You don't need to be on every social media platform, but pick the ones that really play to your strengths.

Mm-hmm. If you like blogging, then by all means start a blog. But if you don't like blogging or if it's too big of a commitment, you gotta understand when people set up a blog, you're telling people I'm gonna post on a regular basis. Whether it's a few times a week or weekly, or biweekly, or monthly, whatever it is.

And what I see happens sometimes is people set up a blog 'cause they wanna be a blogger. They wanna be an influencer. And the first week they are so excited and they post three times. Mm-hmm. And they're making comments back and forth. And then the second week, they're a little busy, so they do it [00:24:00] once, but then the third week they're on a business trip at a conference.

They don't have time. Then they come back and they're buried. 'cause they got so much work to catch up on. And then the next week they get one more post in. But then two weeks later. So here's the thing, what you're telling your audience is I'm very flaky. Mm-hmm. I know I said I was gonna be out here on a regular basis and I was gonna be responsive, but the truth is, this is not a priority for me and I'm not that good of a writer.

And so now you're making excuses. You're, you know, and so again, what's the image that you're putting out there, right? So if you would like the concept of blogging, but the execution's too much to handle what you should do, and I recommend find the blogs that are very well trafficked in your category or industry.

And you can chime in on any basis you want, whether you check it out every week. Every [00:25:00] other week, a few times a week, and you be the person that has a great comment whenever you make a comment. Mm-hmm. And some stuff you may really, you might be right in your sweet spot. You have a very strong opinion about, and you get into a nice conversation with people on the blog.

Well, the good thing about that is someone else is responsible to keep the blog fresh. And every time you comment, you put your signature at the bottom, you've got your name, you know, associated, and you start building your reputation that way. And so every time someone sees Angela's posting, they go. God, every time she posts, she is so smart.

She makes the right comments and she has a really great sense of humor. And so then maybe in a month or a year or a few years down the road, you decide blogging does make sense for you. You've built your, your [00:26:00] reputation through other very popular blogs, and now people can find you and they can, you know, connect with you.

But maybe you just wanna post some thought leadership on your LinkedIn profile.

Both: Mm-hmm. And

Paige Arnof-Fenn: that's okay too. There's no right or wrong answer and you just have to decide what's right for you. And what's a good reflection of kind of your strengths and your expertise? I think, again, where people kind of run amiss is they go on to X or Twitter and they wanna be really snarky.

And again, humor's tricky because some people may find it a little rough around the edges and not as funny as you think you are. On Facebook, they wanna post all their, like college reunions and they're at the beach and they're in a bikini and they're drinking and Yep. And so again, before someone hires you, interviews, you meet you for coffee or lunch, and they Google you and all this stuff comes up, they're [00:27:00] thinking, who is this person?

Like mm-hmm. You know, I'm not sure I get them. I don't get their humor, you know, they don't seem that professional to me. Um, so you know, it, and especially if you're young, you definitely wanna like Google yourself and try and do a bit of a, a digital dirt cleanup. You know, take down stuff that might have been funny when you were in high school or college, but now that you're a professional, you need to get.

A lot of very positive messages out there. So you wanna push down all the old content and old links that maybe are not a great reflection of who you are now as a working professional.

Both: Mm-hmm.

Paige Arnof-Fenn: And I, I just find that, you know. When people, um, when you're young, you don't think about all this stuff on the internet, like kind of lasting forever, but it can't, you can't, you can't always pull it [00:28:00] down.

So yeah, a lot of people just try and put fresh content up there. So that the newer stuff pops up first.

Angela Gennari: Absolutely. And you know, you have to evolve, and this is where I see people get stuck and, you know, they do the things that you know, well. This is just, is email addresses. This is one of my pet peeves.

Like when I get a, a resume from someone, I immediately look at what their email address is that tells me how seriously they take themselves and the process. Because if their email is, you know, sexy girl, 1, 2, 3, then you know, at Gmail they're not taking themselves very seriously and therefore I should also not take them seriously.

And that is

Paige Arnof-Fenn: part of their brand.

Angela Gennari: Right. Actually, that's what you're putting out there. Yeah. So what you name yourself, including what you name your email, you know, what you name your, you know, if they have a, a Facebook profile of something that's not their name, you know, like bunny cakes, you know, some stupid thing and you're like, yeah.

You know, this is not [00:29:00] somebody I wanna bring on as a, as a serious executive or a manager at my company. You know, like this. You, you have to really look at what are you doing, you know, even if you think, well, this is my personal page, it's nobody else's business. Yes, it is. It is your brand, it is your personal brand.

And, you know, if you want to be taken seriously, you start by taking yourself seriously and getting rid of all the childish stuff, you know, all the, all the garbage. So you gotta, you gotta take it seriously.

Paige Arnof-Fenn: And if you come off as someone who's very health conscious and yeah. You know, very sporty and athletic.

And, you know, at, you know, in a professional environment, and then you go out to lunch with someone and you order like the griest. Mm-hmm. You know, and you're, you're not dressed in a more professional way. Um, again, everything communicates, everything. The signature on your email, your email [00:30:00] address, you know, how you look, what you drive, what you wear, you know, all of that is, um, data.

All of those are like breadcrumbs to that lead into your brand. And so mm-hmm. I just, I feel like, um, you know, everything communicates. Yeah. And people, people think, oh, well if you're LeBron James, you know, if you're Beyonce, maybe, but not for me. No, I have, I have to tell you it is for you. Yeah. And you know, if you're the parent on the side of the soccer field and you're screaming and yelling and throwing a tantrum, 'cause your kid's not doing well on the team and other parents are seeing that, that's gonna affect your brand too.

If you come off as Mr. Calm, cool and collected at work, but you're a real jerkier kid because he is not the best player on the team. Mm-hmm. That sends a signal [00:31:00] too. Yeah. And so, you know, just be cognizant of the fact that, you know, you need to be very conscious of all those pieces because they all tell a story and you control your narrative.

And if you want people to think about you in a certain way and talk about you, I. And refer. Refer people, introduce you to people. They need to know that it's gonna be a good reflection of them. Mm-hmm. To hang out with you or to make introductions of people that you trust and know, and you know, if you're not getting that response, you need to kind of take a look in the mirror and make sure that you clean up well.

Angela Gennari: Well, and I, you know, on any kind of social media, and I'm saying this 'cause we're specifically talking about your digital footprint when it comes to, um, you know, your, your brand. So I see people on different [00:32:00] forums, you know, like, again, this is not a, you know, it is your Facebook and your on a security forum, but you are trashing a company or you are, you know, putting somebody out there, making fun of them.

That is a reflection of you. Absolutely. And this is what people need to understand. Like you putting somebody else out and calling them out like you are doing it, number one, without their knowledge, which I don't, I don't defend that because I think that that's just petty. Like if you have a problem with somebody, you go to that person.

You don't blast 'em on social media where they're not going to see it and can defend themselves. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, when, when you see that as an employer and as a security company owner, my first impression is I'm never hiring this person because, you know, all it takes is for them to get upset with me about one little thing, and they're gonna blast me on social media and not give me a chance to defend myself.

And I'm very protective of my reputation. I'm very protective of my brand, and I don't wanna associate with anyone who's going to be snarky and nasty like that and, and exactly lie off the handle. So yeah. [00:33:00]

Paige Arnof-Fenn: Big, big, big. No-no, for sure. No, and I, I just feel like, you know, um, you, you. You can't live in a vacuum today.

Like as you said, you see everything. Mm-hmm. In the old days you thought your Facebook friends were on Facebook and your LinkedIn contacts were on LinkedIn. But today it's, you know, everything, everything kind of is out there. There are no secrets really. No. And so, you know, if you think you can get away with something, like I said, just even going through the back channel of who we know in common, a lot of stuff's gonna come out.

If you're, you know, not good to your word in one part of your life, you're probably not gonna be good to your word in another part of your life.

Angela Gennari: Yeah. Well, and so much of our lives blend these days, right? Like I have business associates that I, you [00:34:00] know, previously may have only had on LinkedIn or email, that's it.

And I wouldn't have let them cross into my personal world. But now more and more of them are sending you from requests on Facebook or connecting with you on Instagram or following you on TikTok. And so there is no, I mean, like, you can keep it very, very, very, you know, personal, but I also feel like people are doing that because they want to get to know you.

They're trying to figure out who you are. And so for me, I just keep the same consistent message across. Like, I don't post bikini pictures at the beach and I don't post, you know, like if, if anything on my Facebook, the only thing non-professional I ever post are. Pictures of my son. That's it. Nice. You know, but I don't, I don't rant about politics.

I don't do anything that I wouldn't want my clients and my employees to see. And that's, and so you have to be mindful,

Paige Arnof-Fenn: right? And that's the way you kind of need to behave today. I think everyone kind of needs to have those guardrails because [00:35:00] mm-hmm. Um, you know, if you're talking politics, you're probably pissing off half the people.

Mm-hmm. Might wanna hire you or might wanna refer business to you. And why take that risk? Yeah. I mean, you can believe what you wanna believe. You're completely entitled to it, but you don't need to kinda wear it out, you know, online all the time. And I, I am, I'm shocked how many people, like you said, go on these rants and say things and they feel completely justified in doing it, but Oh yeah.

What The reflection on them and. The risk that they could be doing it, you know, related to you. It's, it's just not worth it.

Angela Gennari: A hundred percent agree. So what advice do you give to those younger people who maybe did put their pictures out, you know, and, and now they're getting into the workforce? You know, they, in college, they had their fraternity drinking pictures and their [00:36:00] beach bikini pictures and their, you know, they had all the, the fun shots of, you know, them enjoying their, their college life.

And now they've gotten into the workforce and they're like, oh yeah, they're gonna do this deep dive on my social media. How do I clean it up? I've heard internet is forever. So

Paige Arnof-Fenn: what are your suggestions? So again, it's about posting fresh content, pulling down the old pictures, putting up the new pictures.

Both: Mm-hmm. Um,

Paige Arnof-Fenn: you know, I think a lot of young people, I. Um, don't realize that there's a lot of, uh, reverse mentoring that can happen too. A lot of people just assume the older person mentors the younger person, but young people, you know, they're digital native. They grew up with the, the phones and the, the computers in their arms and they know so much that is intuitive to them that people like you and me can learn from.

And so maybe they start [00:37:00] posting things on LinkedIn, on their Facebook about, you know, interesting things that they've learned or, you know, little hacks that have saved time or saved money. Mm-hmm. Or maybe they start a blog and say. You know, if you wanna, um, make, uh, you know, streaming easier or you wanna, you know, there are things that they just know really well that are not intuitive to people like you and me.

And when you're meeting with people for interviews or for informational interviews, um, and they, they are telling you about like, you know, I get so overwhelmed with all these platforms, or, you know, it's just, I don't even know how to use the remote in my house anymore. Mm-hmm. It's so confusing. Um, send them an article or send them a link and say, you know, we had this great discussion and this is something I gave to my parents and it's made all the difference in the world.

Or, you [00:38:00] know, I've helped, um, you know, I volunteer at a senior center once a month, and this is. An article that, you know, I wrote to help them. That's really powerful because you know, when you're building your team and you're looking for the new young talent, you want people who are helpful and who can bridge that gap and that you can learn from that they do add value.

It's not a one-way street. Young people have a lot of value today because they know a lot of things that, um, you and I can learn from. So I would say, you know, clean up your digital dirt, Google yourself, see what pops up and start posting, you know, useful content. Be embrace what it is that you know, um, you know, whether it's uh, new music, movies, what pop culture.

There's a lot out there [00:39:00] that you could. Um, share why it is that these bands are so popular that I don't e I've never even heard of them. Mm-hmm. I was talking to my niece the other day and she was telling me about this band she really loves. I've never even heard of it. Um, but when I was her age, you know, I knew all the new music, but I, you know, I love that because, you know, then I can Google the band and listen, you know, and I, I can see why she likes the music.

Mm-hmm. But that keeps people more relevant, more engaged. And it's useful because marketing is about relevancy, you know? Yeah. You want to, to be, um. You know, I always tell people when they're interviewing for marketing jobs, look and see what's on the billboard charts. What, what's the New York Times bestselling book right now?

What movies won at the box office? Who won the Oscar for Best Picture? Or the Grammy for [00:40:00] Best new song or best new album? If you don't know that stuff, you need, like, you need to know because pop culture and influencers are so important to the marketing messages that are out there. And if you, if, if you are so out of touch, um, you know, how can you put together the right messages?

But so when I see people walking down the streets and they've got their headphones or their earbuds in, and their nose is in their phone and they're not paying attention to the world around them. That is not a, a good way to be a good marketer. Mm-hmm. I think marketers always have their antennas up. I think they always know what's, what's relevant, what's hot in fashion and music and food.

Um, you don't have to like every trend, but you need to know what it is and why it's important. Right. So I always say I didn't watch Game of Thrones, but I understand why [00:41:00] people loved it. Yeah. You know, you, the Beatles can be your favorite band of all time, but that doesn't mean, you know, you've shut down all new music.

It's important, you know, do you know who's gonna be the big Super Bowl advertisers this year? Like that is, you know, why do people care about Taylor Swift and, um, you know, Travis Kelsey? Why do they even care that they're dating? Well, you know, the NFL had a big wake up call last year. Because they had millions more people watching their games because of Taylor Swift watching her boyfriend.

Right. And now there are guys who were, have worked for the NFL for decades who have young daughters, 8, 9, 10, 12 years old, who never was in, never wanted to watch football with their dad, and now they can't get enough. Mm-hmm. They're sitting on the couch before the game starts just to see what Taylor's [00:42:00] wearing, just to see.

I mean, and now they're into football, like, you know. Mm-hmm. And for the NFL, this is amazing 'cause it's bringing new advertisers, their viewership's gone up, so their brand is more relevant, it's more pricey, you know, it's worth more because she's part of it now. So, you know, and, and what she wears turns into like a massive.

Like flood, uh, you know, they, it'll immediately get sold out on online within 24 hours of a game. Mm-hmm. So it's really important, again, to understand the trends. You don't have to love every trend, but you need to follow it in a professional way so you know why it's relevant, why it matters, and who cares.

Angela Gennari: Well, and along those lines, you know, you have to make sure that your brand is reflective of what you wanna say to people. And you know, when you have these windfall marketing moments, right? Like this whole [00:43:00] thing with, um, the NFL, like the NFL has to be prepared for that. And, you know, when you have the NFL and all of a sudden all these new eyeballs are coming to watch, you need to be prepared.

You know, is your social media, um, you know, there's a lot of football players that, you know, have been caught for abusing women and have been caught for doing this. Now you have more pressure 'cause more women are watching and Exactly. And they're looking at you and saying, how can you let this go on? And how can this happen?

And how, and you're going to be judged by a different set of eyes. And so again, prepare. Prepare, prepare, prepare, have your brand in order, have your value system clear and be consistent in all of your messaging of what you're gonna tolerate, what you're not gonna tolerate. What, what do you believe in, what do you not believe in, what will you stand for?

All of these things are gonna make, make a lot of difference when people start coming.

Paige Arnof-Fenn: A hundred percent. Absolutely. Positively. Yeah. I saw something, there's a NFL player's [00:44:00] wife who's a fashion designer. Mm-hmm. And she's never been noticed before, ever. Right. Um, and just on a whim, she sent Taylor Swift, a jacket that she designed that had a lot of, like Travis Kelsey stuff, the colors, the numbers, um, and she just sent her the jacket and said.

You know, I've been in and around the NFLA long time. My husband's at the end of his career. I'm a fashion designer. I just thought this would be something you'd find cute. And she just, she doesn't even know Taylor Swift. She just sent it to her. Well, Taylor wore it to the next game, and of course everyone went online.

What, who did this? Where did she find this? The woman has never, like, she went from completely in the dark to like, everything she's ever designed is now sold out. Wow. And you know, again, who would've [00:45:00] thought, right, right. Taylor Swift puts on these little glitter freckles, um, and these eight, nine, 10-year-old girls love them.

Mm-hmm. She wears, and again, this is something that's like $5 online. You, you can't find them for like months. They were sold out. So, you know, these trends, they pop up and you don't have to be a Kardashian to be an influencer. Mm-hmm. Uh, you, you know, it doesn't need to be, um, expensive. It can be something that's cheap.

It can be something that's fun. But, um, you know, I, I just think people need to, uh, if you wanna be a great marketer, you really need to pay attention. Get your nose outta your phone. Keep your antenna up and pay attention to what's out there. Why, what are people doing? Why are they doing it? Why is it important?

Who's benefiting? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [00:46:00] Um, ask yourself those basic questions because the best marketers, the people that are really gonna be able to benefit and take advantage of these trends in the market. Um, those brands are gonna thrive in the new year if, uh, if they get, you know, if they do their homework, if they get it right.

Angela Gennari: A hundred percent. Yes. I agree. So, to pivot a little bit, um, what advice would you give to your 18-year-old self?

Paige Arnof-Fenn: Boy? Oh boy. I would be very nice to that person. I think. I know. Yeah. She was. So, uh, you know, when I was 18, I just, I wanted to be successful. I wanted to know that I'd have this, like, interesting life and, um, you

Angela Gennari: know, well, you set yourself up Well, with Harvard and Stanford, that's not a bad way to start at 18,

Paige Arnof-Fenn: but, you know, I mean, my guidance counselor in high school told me I was shooting too high.

[00:47:00] Really? Oh. He said, you don't have enough backup schools. You know, I don't think you're gonna get into a lot of these schools. And I was really, uh. Res, you know, he really took the, outta my sales and my mother and my math teacher, I was a really good math student, and the two of them said to me, the guidance counselor isn't the admissions director.

He doesn't know, right? Mm-hmm.

Both: He

Paige Arnof-Fenn: doesn't know you the way we know you. My mom knew I was really, you know, very diliGennarit, hardworking, my math teacher knew I was really good in math, and they said, you apply anywhere you want to go. Don't listen to him. He, it's not up to him. And I got into Stanford and I had my dad send the check the next day.

I was so excited. Wow. But I think, you know, when you're 18, you, you, you know, you can get distracted by things that maybe aren't the most important things. You wanna be stylish, you wanna be pretty, you wanna be [00:48:00] smart, you wanna, I mean, those are all great qualities, but don't get obsessed with that. I guess what I would say is.

You know, you're gonna do fine. Keep doing your homework, you know, keep meeting great people. Yep. Don't be scared to fail. Mm-hmm. Because I think, you know, as I was embarking on my adulthood, I always thought, what if I screw up? What if I fail? I think the older I get, the more I realize, um, it's not really failure.

If you're learning from those early experiences, you're growing, you're getting better. Everybody kind of stumbles and falls down. It's not about that. It's about getting back up and being smarter the next time.

Angela Gennari: That's exactly right.

Paige Arnof-Fenn: And when I think when I was young, you know, I would say I wanna be on the list for the 30, under 30, the 40 under 40.

I want to be the smartest, the fastest, the best. [00:49:00] And I would set these like arbitrary goals for myself. Um, to get like the accolades for having done something extraordinary. Yeah. Uh, at a really young age. And again, now I think about all the amazing people who were kind of later bloomers, you know, they came into their own, they had a career pivot, they did something, learn from, it went another direction.

And, you know, don't set arbitrary goals for yourself. If you're not Mark Zuckerberg starting a huge company and being the president before your 30th birthday, that doesn't mean you're not successful. That's right. You just, you know, you're on a different path. And, you know, my husband, when I turned 30, he gave me a book about all the people that, like later in life found their calling.

It really left a [00:50:00] great impression on me. A lot of people didn't start their kind of most, uh, successful career until their forties, fifties, sixties. That's exactly right. Yeah. And so, you know, there are people, I had a little, I had a friend, uh, when I was little and she used to, um, cut open all of her like raggedy and dolls in the chest and sew 'em back up.

She wanted to be a heart surgeon. Oh wow. She knew it from like the youngest age. All of her dolls always had heart surgery. Um, and turns out fast forward, she is like an arrhythmia specialist and probably Wow. One of the top heart surgeons in the country. She's amazing. And it was in her DNA from the youngest age.

I don't know how she knew about heart surgery, but like I said, every doll, every Barbie, they all had marks to the chest. And that's her. And you [00:51:00] think about Michael Dell starting Dell computer from his, um, college dorm room. I mean, he had a vision. He knew it. Mm-hmm. There are people like that, but not everybody's like that.

Like I said, I started my career on Wall Street in the eighties and it was a crazy wild ride. But after two years, I was done with that. Mm-hmm. I closed that chapter, then I opened a new chapter to do marketing, and it was corporate marketing. And then I closed that chapter and did startup marketing, and then I closed that chapter and became an entrepreneur.

And who knows, I mean, it's been 23 years, it's my longest chapter, but it may be something else in a few years. Mm-hmm. Um, so, you know, that's fine. You, you're allowed to pivot. You're allowed to learn and grow and, you know, go different directions. But I think when you're 18, you just, you wanna know, you know, I'm gonna make it, I'm gonna be successful, I'm gonna make my [00:52:00] parents proud.

But I think your definition of success changes as you learn and grow. And it's okay. It's supposed to. Absolutely. You know, if, if what you're doing is to please your parents when you're your age or my age. You're not doing something right, like you need to figure out what's right for you. Not your neighbor, not your siblings.

You know, your parents had their own careers to do what they wanted to do. This is your time. And I have friends who have gone back and decided, you know, their parents didn't want 'em to go to medical school. But after a few years of working, they decided they really did wanna be a doctor and they went back, took classes, applied.

You know, I have friends who took the LSAT in college so that they could apply to law school 'cause they didn't have any better ideas of what to do after graduation. Well they did well on the test. They joined a law firm. Then you fast forward, they're 40 [00:53:00] years old, they're a partner and they think, how in the hell did I end up being a lawyer?

I didn't even wanna be a lawyer. I just took the lsac. 'cause it was something to do. Mm-hmm. In college to figure out, you know, what do I do after graduation? And then they go and do something completely different. They start a business, they go a completely different direction. Just because you start in a career path doesn't mean you need to stay there.

I agree. The world, I agree, changes. You change, you know? So I would just give my 18-year-old self a little grace and a little slack and say, you know, you do, you pick your lane, you know, do what makes you happy. Do what's really like fun and interesting for you. And if you love it, you're gonna be great at it.

Angela Gennari: Well, and to circle that back to personal branding, you can reinvent yourself as many times as you want, right? So just because my, like my previous career was in the event world and now I'm, it's in [00:54:00] the security world and I merged the two together, and you can be the same person and different career paths.

You can hold the same values, you can hold the same, you know, thoughts about yourself and the same reputation. You still bring that level of trust into the next thing that you do. But that personal brand is the consistency. So exactly. You know, your, your consistency with your values and, and who you are and what you stand for, that will translate from career to career.

And that's why your personal brand is so important. And it can be completely outside of your professional brand, but you, again, it's that personal brand that you have to make sure is consistent no matter what you're doing.

Paige Arnof-Fenn: Right. Your core values don't change. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And like you and me, all the roads of my career and life converged into this chapter.

And some of my best clients and best referrals are coming from people that knew me in school, knew me in banking, knew me in corporate, knew me in [00:55:00] startups, and like you said, I'm still me inside. Yeah. They knew I would work hard. They knew I would be relevant and it'd be up to date and be fun to work with and have a great work ethic and all of that.

So that is exactly correct. Like, and if you look at people like Madonna or Oprah, look at how their careers have evolved and how much they've changed. Mm-hmm. If, you know when Madonna came out, when I was in college and high school in the eighties. I mean, she had like tons of makeup. Um, she wore like leather and her hair was like bleach blonde.

Yes. And, you know, and she, she evolved with each kind of decade, you know. Then she got married, she had kids, she got into yoga and Kabbalah and, you know, softened her look and got to be more kind of, um, softer [00:56:00] look, you know, just, and now she's like, you know, in her mid sixties and looking amazing and has these grown children.

And, you know, and look at Oprah, she started as like, you know, uh, an anchor reporter. Mm-hmm. Yeah. An anchor on the news In, in Chicago, or No, I, I don't even know if she started in Chicago, Baltimore. I think. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Mm-hmm. And then she went from there to her talk show, and her talk show started out being kind of sensational to get the ratings.

And she decided that's not the show she wanted her do. And then she made it more about kindness and doing good and telling good stories. And then she started her book club and people, you know, loved her. And then, you know, and you look at how she morphed and then the show went off the air. She started her network.

She was in movies. She's become a producer. You know, [00:57:00] she had a production company. And you look at how her brand has evolved. Mm-hmm. But all those core values and all those pieces were threads throughout her life and career. And people that knew her in Baltimore and Chicago are still part of her world now that she's in California.

Mm-hmm. And so, you know. People morph and evolve their personal brands all the time, and it's quite possible, but it's not whiplash. You're carrying them along with you and you're you. Again, back to that consistency that we talked about at the very beginning. There are consistent themes and threads that, you know, tell people, this is someone who I trust.

I like, I feel comfortable referring. It's a good reflection of me. I still wanna be part of their world. Whatever they do next, I'm going with them.

Angela Gennari: Absolutely. [00:58:00] Absolutely. Amen to that. Well, this has been really, really enjoyable, Paige. I've really enjoyed our conversation. I've learned a ton from you.

Paige Arnof-Fenn: Well, I, I, you were so easy to talk to.

This has been a blast. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Angela Gennari: Well, I just have one more question for you. What do you wish more people knew?

Paige Arnof-Fenn: Wow. I guess I wish more people knew that, um, you know, it's really good to have a growth mindset. Um, if you win, I don't have to lose. Yeah. We can both win. And I wish people were of the, the mindset that like, don't worry about dividing up all the pies.

Let's learn how to make more, more pies. Mm-hmm. So more of us can eat and more of us can, um, you know, build more together. Yes. And I think, you know, when you're young, I think it's, [00:59:00] you're more competitive with the outside world and you don't need to compete for everything. I think, um, you know, it's okay to push yourself and, and to be, have a competitive spirit, but.

Compete internally, kind of share externally, because I think when you, when you give more, you get more. Mm-hmm. The, in my experience, the more you give, the more you get.

Both: Mm-hmm. And I

Paige Arnof-Fenn: just feel like, I mean, look at what's going on in California this week. People are coming up with these incredibly, um, heartfelt, generous acts and everyone's gonna benefit from that.

The world will get better and heal the more people, um, have that growth mindset. So yeah, I guess I just wish people could bake more pies.

Angela Gennari: Yes. Yes. I love that. I love that idea and that analogy. [01:00:00] So, well, thank you again, Paige. This has been wonderful. And um, I know they can find you on pretty powerful podcast.com, but where else can they find you?

Paige Arnof-Fenn: Um, my website, mavens and moguls.com and LinkedIn. Is my platform of choice. Paige Arnof, Ben. But thanks again. This has been a great conversation

Angela Gennari: and thank you for being here. I appreciate all of your great insight today. So wishing you incredible success in this journey or whatever the pivot may be after.

So you too. Thank you guys and uh, we look forward to seeing you on another episode of the Pretty Powerful podcast. Have a great day.

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