Episode 95: Michelle Merritt

Michelle Merritt - Episode 95

Intro: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Pretty Powerful Podcast, where powerful women are interviewed every week to share real inspiring stories and incredible insight to help women or anyone break the barriers, be a part of innovation, shatter the glass ceiling, and dominate to the top of their sport, industry, or life's mission.

Join us as we celebrate exceptional women and step into our power. And now here's your host, Angela Gennari.

Angela Gennari: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Pretty Powerful Podcast. My name is Angela Gennari and today I'm here with Michelle Merritt. Hi Michelle. Hi, how are you? I am wonderful. Thank you so much for joining me.

So drawing on her 20 year corporate career as a Fortune 500 recruiter, corporate culture executive, and chamber of commerce leader, Michelle provides a wealth of experience for her clients. Today, she guides executive leaders through the end to end job search [00:01:00] process from resume writing to negotiating offers.

So love this because we love some good career management expertise and we don't get that enough. So I am excited to talk to you.

Michelle Merritt: I'm excited to talk to you. Thanks for having me.

Angela Gennari: Absolutely. So what made you want to get into career management, especially on the executive side?

Michelle Merritt: Right. So my career early in my career, I was a recruiter.

I was an executive recruiter in national home building. Until 2008 when suddenly no one needed a home building. Yeah, no, well, they don't need a job. It's just not the right, right, right. Exactly. Not the people paying the bill. So, um, so at that point I made a shift as we all did in the industry, but ultimately a couple of years later, friends started calling saying, Hey, while you're doing other things, will you help me with my resume?

Will you help me through this interview? I'll pay you. Right. Sort of thing. So I started using that [00:02:00] expertise that I had built. I was always great on the candidate side of recruiting, right? I was, I am not an exceptional business development person, but I am great at making sure we have the most prepared candidates, that everyone's ready for their interviews, things like that.

I would have, you know, division CEOs call me and say, Hey, can you not prep this person because I can't out interview you? Right. Yeah. Oh, right.

Both: And

Michelle Merritt: so as a result, that just parlayed into a business. And 12 years ago, I opened my own consulting firm and doing resumes and career management. At the same time, Deborah Boggs, our DNS CEO was opening DNS executive career management.

We've been friends for many years. We supported each other's businesses, um, traded work back and forth, all of those things, and in November of 22 sat down and decided it was time we did it all together. And so after about 13 months, the merger was [00:03:00] complete. So the merger became complete January 1st of this year.

And congratulations. Thank you. Business has skyrocketed. We can't keep up, which is a good problem to have.

Angela Gennari: Yeah. Yeah. That's a very good problem to have. Good for you. I love to see that. So I have so many questions. I mean, just so many. Let's talk. So, okay. So first of all, um, I need to dive into this college, no college question, because if anyone can answer that question, it's going to be you.

So there's so much debate right now. Is college still worth the price?

Michelle Merritt: That's a good

question. And

what I would say is it depends on the person, right? So everyone's going to come to that decision from a different place. We are seeing more employers opt to take experience over degree. So oftentimes a, someone who is mid career will come to me and say, I don't know if I can apply for that leadership position because I didn't finish college, right?

Um, It doesn't, [00:04:00] it doesn't necessarily mean that you can't apply. Okay. What it means is that we're going to use our network to really start to open doors for us.

Both: Right?

Michelle Merritt: We're not necessarily going to rely on the piece of paper and checking the box in the database that says, yes, I have a bachelor's degree.

And what we're seeing is far more young people today starting their own businesses when they're fresh out of even high school. We have, we see young people starting their own businesses in high school.

Angela Gennari: My son has his own very successful business in high school. He is 17 years old and a junior and he's good.

He, he, he has a very successful business right now. So it's, it's very, it's starting much, much younger.

Michelle Merritt: It is. Now, that also means, you know, continue to pursue education so you know how to manage your business correctly, right? We don't want to just say, Oh, I've got this and stop learning. Right. We never want to stop learning.

Right. He may decide at some point that the degree is right for him, or he may not.

Yeah. And it

sounds like you may be in support of him finding his own path. And so [00:05:00] I think it's great to recognize there are pros and cons to both.

Both: Mm hmm. Yeah.

Michelle Merritt: Um, and we are seeing more and more employers open up opportunities to people who don't necessarily have four year degrees.

Angela Gennari: Yeah, well, I was curious about that because, you know, with the expense of college now, when I went to college, it was expensive, and that was, you know, 20 ish years ago. I understand. Me too. But, um, you know, when, when I went, it was pretty expensive, and it was challenging to pay back that debt, but now colleges cost more.

Exponentially more. I mean, even baseline, you know, state universities. I mean, we're not even talking Ivy Leagues can easily, easily run you into several hundred million or several hundred thousand dollars by the time you finish your feels

Michelle Merritt: like millions. I

Angela Gennari: know it does feel like millions. 11 billion million.

Right.

Michelle Merritt: What I will also say is take advantage if you have. a strong community college in your community. Community college can be a great way to start

Both: that

Michelle Merritt: process to get some of the [00:06:00] basics out of the way. Um, you know, for people who still have high school students at home, things like that, a lot of school systems now offer a partnership with your local state college or community college where your student can be pursuing credit.

So that we had one young woman a while back who I met. She was amazing. And she is graduating high school. She graduated last year, high school with, uh, with her two year associates degree. Oh, wow. That's because she was taking, I live in Indiana and she was taking advantage of the Ivy tech, which is the statewide community college here.

She was taking advantage of the Ivy tech program that allowed her to pursue dual credit. And so she graduated high school with an associate's degree.

Angela Gennari: That is really, really good. That's awesome. Yeah, I know that's happening in Georgia a lot too is people are doing a dual enrollment and that that has helped tremendously just in terms of how much time that you have to commit after high school into college [00:07:00] courses.

So that's great. Absolutely. Now, next question is, is an MBA worth it? Right. Again,

Michelle Merritt: I'm going to say it depends on the person, right? There are organizations where if you want to move up, you have to have that master's degree. You have to have the MBA. It might, it might be an MSO. There can be a variety of things there, right?

Depending on the type. So if you are looking at a finance role, if you're looking at a business operations role, that MBA may be really beneficial for you. Look at the organization. That you want to be a part of and that you want to move up into and ask yourself, does everyone there check their bios, check their LinkedIn profiles, does everyone there have a master's degree?

Angela Gennari: And if

Michelle Merritt: so, that might be something to think about investing in.

Angela Gennari: Um,

Michelle Merritt: and there are programs that aren't as expensive as others, right? Unless we're talking about Ivy League education. We see a lot of organizations, [00:08:00] a lot of companies who are less concerned about where the degree is from, assuming it's from an accredited university, and more concerned about the fact that you completed it.

Angela Gennari: Yeah, that's good. Well, and you know, one of the things that I've often not complained about, but I just found surprising was, you know, I had actually just spoke about this on my previous podcast, but, you know, my last two years, my first two years of college, I did okay, you know, average, not, not anything outstanding.

And I was just determined. I'm like, okay, I need to turn this around. I need to ace college. You know, I need to get my, I'm graduating. I love that. And so I, I, you know, lived off campus. I studied my butt off and sure enough, I graduated on the Dean's list. And then a total of zero people have asked for my transcript to see what my grade point average was.

like, dang it. And that's

Michelle Merritt: not to say that you shouldn't try. No, no, definitely. It You know, and the [00:09:00] further you get out of college, yeah, the, the, the more distance between graduation and where you are today, the less people care about your GPA.

Angela Gennari: Well, and, and I will say that if you do plan to get an advanced degree, it does matter, but, um, but when it comes to, you know, going into the workforce, and I mean, one of the reasons I buckled down is because I did plan to get an advanced degree.

And then I So I had planned to go back and get my MBA or my PhD. I wasn't quite sure if I wanted to go into, you know, learning psychology or business. And so I was kind of in between the two and, um, just expenses, you know, I wanted to go to law school. I was like, yeah, I think I'll just take a few years off.

And then, you know, the same story, you just never go back. And then after I realized I was going to go into the business world, I had had the opportunity. started my second company by this point, I thought, you know, I should probably go back and get an MBA. But then as I talked to people, more and more people said, well, are you just going to be an entrepreneur?

Because the only person who would care about an MBA at that [00:10:00] point is you. You're not climbing a corporate ladder anywhere. So, I mean, there are definitely some benefits to the knowledge you get with an MBA. You bet.

Michelle Merritt: You bet.

Angela Gennari: But also did I want to sacrifice the life experience I was getting in business

Michelle Merritt: to

Angela Gennari: get the MBA?

And so it's a trade off. You really got to think about, you know, what are you learning on either side? And is that going to be required for taking the next step as an executive?

Michelle Merritt: Right. I completely agree. I think that it is a question of does it fit the individual and where you see your career going. Very

Angela Gennari: interesting.

Okay, very cool. So, as somebody who, you know, really places executives and you work on a higher level, what do you feel like are those skill sets that are the most important to have?

Michelle Merritt: So, one of my favorite groups to really work with among our clients are those making their first leap to the C suite. Great.

Okay, right. And part of the reason for that is because it's a real transition from being the tactical leader. Yeah, [00:11:00] right. And I hear especially from women, you know, I would never ask my team to do anything I wouldn't do. I'm a roll up my sleeves sort of leader. Yeah, that's great.

Both: But

Michelle Merritt: There's always a but the problem is when we start to shift to the EVP role, the C suite, that sort of thing, what we see are, and what we see is a need for visionary leadership for strategy, right?

We shift from tactical to strategy. And so one of the most important things is being able to demonstrate, yes, you've been a tactical leader, but how have you led the organizational vision and mission and gotten your team in place to do that?

Angela Gennari: That's great. And it's hard to do that. And, you know, I find, and I not hire a lot of people with my business just because we, we staff variety of positions, but we're, we're not on the, um, anyway, so we'll take, you know, for example, a security guard or somebody who's been a great employee, and we'll try to [00:12:00] put them into a supervisor position.

And sometimes it's a real big deal. Crash and burn. Um, not everybody is fit for leadership or management the same way they're fit to do their job exceptionally well. So for those people who are like, well, I'm a really, I'm the best at this particular thing. Leadership may or may not be in their cards, you know, for, for something like that.

Would you agree? Right.

Michelle Merritt: I think so. But I think, I think leadership can be taught, right? I am someone who really does believe that if we equip our people Yes, we can teach those valuable leadership skills, but we have to be mentors to our people. We have to train up our team and give them not only the opportunity to learn, but the opportunity to fail safely.

Angela Gennari: Yes. Agreed. Yeah. Well, and it has to be a space where they also understand the importance of certain nuances when it comes to leadership. And that is, you know, handling things with grace and with. Professionalism and there's just certain ways to address employees and there's certain ways to, [00:13:00] you know, speak with a client that's gonna, you know, you're just going to have to kind of groom those parts.

But you can do that in education and

Michelle Merritt: many and many times we're not that doesn't come naturally.

Angela Gennari: Right, right.

Michelle Merritt: And so until we have someone point out that something we say or, um, you know, the, the joking around that we do with our coworkers is not necessarily going to be okay when you're in that leadership role, things like that, um, with those shifts and those transitions need to be communicated clearly.

To our team as we're mentoring them.

Angela Gennari: Okay. I love that. So you were talking about your network and reaching out to your network. So how, how does one do that? So, you know, and I'm not looking for a job. I'm perfectly happy running my company, but if I were to, you know, go say, okay, I need, I need to find something else that, you know, something has happened and, you know, a new CEO has taken over.

What do I do? And how do you activate your network when you're searching for a [00:14:00] job?

Michelle Merritt: So it's the number one question people ask me. Number two is salary negotiations. So, um, when we talk about networks, we talk about a couple of things. Number one, we recognize that we all have them. Yes. Right? Because people will say to me, Michelle, I don't have a network.

I only know the people I work with. That is not true.

Both: Right.

Michelle Merritt: Um, the other thing I will say is people will tell me, Oh, I'm an introvert and I don't, I don't want to network. Right? Yeah. Introverts make the best networkers often, because as a, spoken as a true introvert, I am someone who is, values the one on one relationship, right?

And so networking comes from good one on one connection. Yeah, so those of you saying that I'm an introvert, I can't network. It's not true. Okay. So what I always do is tell people, you know, think of your network in terms of every single person, you know, so that it, that is your neighbors, brothers, cousins, sisters, friends, [00:15:00] because they may be the key that opens the door to your next opportunity.

Absolutely. And. And then I break my network up into categories. This always sounds a little corny, but it's true. Um, I break my network up into what I call the 2 a. m. group,

Both: meaning

Michelle Merritt: the people you can contact in the middle of the night in a crisis who will willingly get out of bed and help you.

Both: Yes.

Michelle Merritt: My network is also my 6 a.

1. group. people who outside of the normal course of the day will happily help, but probably not the people you're calling it to in the morning. And then lastly, what I call the 8am group. And those are those people who throughout the normal course of the day will be happy to help, but probably not going to, you know, extremes outside of the normal course of the day to help.

And so we start identifying those lists, actually making lists. of who we know, all of those things, and then start identifying, what do we know about the people, where do they work, where do they worship, where do their kids go to school, what's their alma mater, who do they drink with on Friday, and [00:16:00] brunch with on Sunday, sort of thing, so that we can start to identify who we need to reach out to, to start activating that search.

Angela Gennari: Love that. I love that because you're right. I mean, when you looked at, when you look at, you know, Oh, well, who's my professional network? That's not your only network. Your professional network is not it. You actually have a huge network of people. So I love that. Okay. Very cool. And so as people are networking, um, what, what is the ask?

What are you asking of people?

Michelle Merritt: Well, number one, the first thing you're asking is how can I help you? Right. Networking is never about you. It's always about the other person. Yes, right. So the first thing we always want to say is, you know, how can I help? Right. And, and coming at this with a desire to help the other person.

And you may say, Listen, I'm early in my career and there is nothing I can bring to this person. You don't know that.

Both: Yeah. And

Michelle Merritt: sometimes just being polite enough to ask is enough to open that door and make someone want to help you [00:17:00] as well. So it's always how do I help you? But then it, it's also know what your, know what you want from the conversation, right?

And if you're trusting someone, especially in that 2 a. m. group. Or the 6 a. m. group. If you are trusting someone like that, it may simply be, you know, I am excited about the opportunity ahead. Maybe I'm a little nervous about the opportunity to make a change, but I trust your judgment and I would love your input.

Oh, that's great. Can we talk? Yeah. Right? I never call someone up and say, Hey, can I, can we grab coffee and talk? Because that doesn't, Deliver the sense of urgency that I need. And I always want to know what the topic is. The other thing I never say to people, and it's just a personal pet peeve is, can I pick your brain?

I hate that phrase. You pick through trash. You do not pick my, you can not pick through my knowledge. Yeah.

Angela Gennari: Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle Merritt: And so I always find that phrase insulting. And what we want to be careful of is [00:18:00] to really demonstrate that we respect the person's opinion. Okay. And there's a reason that we're reaching out to them.

The last thing we always ask is, who else do I need to know? In every networking conversation, it doesn't matter the topic, I'm always asking, who else do I need to know? Who else do I need to talk to?

Angela Gennari: Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Merritt: And I'm following up, unless I am, morally opposed to the person for some reason. I am always following up with whoever that person recommended because they know something I don't.

Angela Gennari: Yeah, absolutely. That's such great advice. I, I like that a lot because you're right. I mean, there's so many instances where, you know, if you go in with a, a helping, agenda. You know, how can I help you? You know, I trust your advice. I trust your opinion. You know, I value you, you as a friend and a confidant.

And I think that just opens it up. You know, when somebody calls me and they're like, Hey, let's go get coffee. I want to pick your brain. I'm immediately like, Oh God, this could be a 20 questions thing. Like I, you know, like I have to be [00:19:00] mentally prepared for something like that. Whereas a conversation is just a conversation.

You know, if somebody says, Hey, I trust your judgment, let's talk. Transcribed Fine, you know, but the other way sounds like you're going to interview me and I've got to have all the answers and, you know, you're going to be, you know, I'm, you're going to be deep diving into the knowledge that I've got. And that, that to me is a stressful situation.

Like I don't have to, I'm not ready for that.

Michelle Merritt: And it also sometimes tells people that your knowledge isn't valuable enough for you, for them to pay you. Correct. Yeah. Right. Because you've earned. This knowledge right that has come with lots of experience that you have built. Yeah over the years And so we want to be mindful of respecting people's knowledge and how they're compensated for that Absolutely.

Angela Gennari: I agree. So, so, okay. One of the things that I think is a big discussion right now is how people get out of college and they immediately think they need to make X amount of money and be in this role and that role, and they haven't earned their [00:20:00] place into it. So when is the good, the right time, you know, so somebody getting out of college and they say, okay, you know, I want to make.

Six figures and I want to have this executive title and they kind of have that mentality of like, you know, from zero to zero sixty, right? And they've skipped one, one to 59. And so when is that right time? And how do you start building that up? And what, what is the proper approach? So I'll say

Michelle Merritt: first and foremost, I admire their courage and their chutzpah.

I

Angela Gennari: really do.

Michelle Merritt: I do. Hey, you do not get what you don't ask for. That's right. Right.

Angela Gennari: That's right. So

Michelle Merritt: I love that approach. Right. There's

Angela Gennari: no short of audacity in the world. That's for sure.

Michelle Merritt: Correct. Correct. So, um, and what we will often see is, you know, men will apply for a role that they are 40 percent qualified for.

Both: Mm hmm. And

Michelle Merritt: say, yep, I'm ready. I got it. Give me the title. Let's go. Let's do it.

Angela Gennari: Yeah.

Michelle Merritt: Women will call me and say, I'm only 85 percent [00:21:00] qualified. And so I shouldn't apply. Should I? Right. Right? Totally different approach. It's not a critique of our male colleagues. If anything, it is a reminder that we need to be following that example.

And so I don't think there's anything wrong with shooting high, aiming high. I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all. I think what we have to be able to prove Is what we've accomplished to this point that makes us worthy of the title and the opportunity.

Angela Gennari: Right. Right. Agreed. Okay. All right.

I like that answer because, you know, a lot of people will say, well, I, I just got this degree and I did really well in school and I've got, you know, 100, 000 social media followers. So clearly I know what I'm talking about. And therefore I need this role. And it's really just about what have you actually accomplished that's relevant.

Michelle Merritt: What have you accomplished? But also, what do you bring, right? Maybe you bring an innovative idea. Maybe you bring the opportunity to, um, you [00:22:00] know, demonstrate a new skill or a new path forward for an organization. So perhaps you, if it is a branding position, you know, maybe you are bringing those followers in a new group that someone hasn't thought of.

That's great. Be willing to demonstrate that. In the same breath. Also, remember that you do have to prove yourself along the way.

Angela Gennari: Yeah, there's expectations.

Michelle Merritt: there. And be, take ownership of your accomplishments. When you're early in your career, it can be hard to take ownership of all that you've done. What I always caution people who are a little further in their career, especially women, women will tend to use we instead of I.

Both: Yes. When

Michelle Merritt: talking in an interview.

Both: Yes. Be

Michelle Merritt: mindful to make sure that you're talking about your accomplishments leading the team, that you take personal ownership of that.

Angela Gennari: That's a great point because I actually, one of the questions that I ask on my podcast all the time is when have you given away your power and when did you step into your power?

And most of the time it has to deal with somebody else taking credit. [00:23:00] And many times as women, we Um, I'm not sure if I can stand up for that and say, actually, no, that was me that did that. Or that was, you know, my achievement, my accomplishment, my discovery, my invention. And I was actually just reading something this morning about, um, have you heard of the, the Matilda effect?

I've not. It is a paper that was written about how many things that were invented and the credit was given to their male colleague, counterpart, supervisor, whatever it is, to the point to, to, to the extent that they've actually, the men have accepted the Nobel prize for the, uh, Female's invention and her name was never even noted.

Um, so yeah, so things like that, but you're right

Michelle Merritt: question.

Angela Gennari: Yeah. So I feel like that is something that, you know, as women, we, we're very community minded. We're very, you know, we think outside of just ourselves. And so because of that, I used to constantly say the word we, you know, like when I'm talking about, [00:24:00] you know, things that my team has done, I'm always, you know, Even when the company was literally just me, I would say, so we have implemented a training program.

Right, right, right. And so, yeah, I think that that's just a natural thing that we do. And we're very quick to not stand up and take credit for something. So I think it's very interesting. So, so how do you get to your first C suite role? What would you say would be, you know, how would you take that first step?

Michelle Merritt: Right. How would I take that first step? I would identify what I bring to the table, what I've accomplished, what I've achieved to this point. I would also have an honest conversation with my mentors about where the gaps are, where the blind spots are. That's great. So, um, I'm a big proponent of knowing both.

Right. No owning what you bring, right. And being willing to broadcast that again, saying I, instead of we, et cetera, having that conversation around the visionary leadership and the strategy, as opposed to just tactics. But then I also am seeking out sponsors. I'm speaking [00:25:00] out, seeking out advocates, right.

And I'm talking with my internal champ, internal and external champions about what I need to do better. Where are the gaps? And you know, it's interesting, the higher up you go, the less willing people are to identify the gaps. Oh, interesting. And so find those people in your life who will pull you aside and go, you know, there's this over here, I'm being hypercritical right now, but there's this over here, right?

Um, I gave a talk recently on a panel and, um, a coach that I've worked with in the past was in the audience. And so immediately after the panel discussion, I said, give it to me. You know, I do this for a living. So tell me what I need to fix. Sure. Right. And it was very much a supportive conversation. But also a very critical one.

And, and she even said, Michelle, I'm digging, right? I'm having to really dig to give you something to, to [00:26:00] improve upon. That's very flattering, but I do, I never want to leave a conversation not knowing where I can improve or what the gap is that I need to be mindful of.

Angela Gennari: Well, and that to me, that's a great.

Uh, it's something unique. Not everybody has that quality. You know, some people, when you start to say, Hey, and you say, Hey, what can I be doing better? And you actually start to give the feedback, they become very defensive, or they give you all the reasons why they did it the way they did it. And really, it's just about being careful, because, you know, When you have the opportunity to learn and when you have the opportunity to get feedback, take it really like to heart and, you know, understand that you may have your reasons for why you did one thing or another, but take it all in and absorb it and see where that might be coming from.

Again. Everybody has a different perspective. So for them, it made something may not have worked for them and that's okay. But I love that you're able, able to really absorb that information and you ask for it.

Michelle Merritt: You bet. And it's, it's a matter of active [00:27:00] listening, right? Because instead of listening to defend.

Yes. Your position. Yes. And so I find myself happy to say, okay, stop and listen to what she's saying. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And, um, and then, okay, how can, how could I have been better? Yes. Now, I may choose not to agree with her feedback. And that's perfectly okay. I'm, I'm the adult in the room. I can choose to listen.

Okay. Agree or disagree. I can choose not to do anything with it, but having that person who, who is willing to provide that makes a huge difference in our professional development.

Angela Gennari: It really does. And it's the emotional intelligence to be able to take it, you know, as it is. You know, and as intended and and do something productive with it.

So that's wonderful. All right. So I want to pivot a little bit because we talked a little bit about, you know, we talked about getting into the job search, getting into that corporate role, you know, how to kind of bring your best self to the table. So how do you negotiate a salary then? Because you talked about a salary negotiation being [00:28:00] your second most important Frequently asked question, um, so how do you start a salary negotiation?

And what do you think are the challenges for women in particular in salary negotiations?

Michelle Merritt: So a couple of things is number one, we want to know our numbers going in,

Angela Gennari: right? We

Michelle Merritt: want the salary negotiation starts long before someone puts an offer together. Yes. Right. So even before you start, Interviewing or even before you submit a resume to a particular company know your automatic.

Yes, your automatic. No numbers, right? So what does that look like your automatic? Yes is, you know, if it is this package over here because compensation is made up of a variety of a variety of things.

Both: Um,

Michelle Merritt: if it is this package, I could say yes, without having to negotiate. Wouldn't advise that, but you could say yes.

We have that bubble over here. Then we have our automatic. No. You know, what is that? It doesn't matter how much I like you, how much I like the team, how excited I am about the work. If that [00:29:00] package isn't comprised of this over here, I have to say no.

Angela Gennari: Right, right.

Michelle Merritt: So know your numbers, know what makes up compensation for you, right?

That's base salary, that's bonus potential, that's stock options, that's retirement funds, health insurance, all the things, right? PTO, all the things that come with that. And so how are those, how do those things fit your needs? Right, and everyone's going to be different. So we start with knowing all of that, understanding what the market's going to bear based upon your unique location, your unique industry, your title, all of those things as well.

So you know that going into it, I think women tend to tend to fear looking bossy and, and, and another word that I don't say. And, um, if they're asking for what they want. Right. My question back to a woman every time she says that is, do you really want to work for someone that would call you that word?

Right. [00:30:00] Yeah, right. No. Instead, we want to own where we need to be again, be able to demonstrate what we've accomplished and what we've achieved and why we've earned the right to be there. And in at that level,

Angela Gennari: I like that. So, um, cause what I see a lot as an employer is people will come to me and say, well, this is where my household expenses are.

And this is where I need to be. Is that a fair way to negotiate or no?

Michelle Merritt: I

Angela Gennari: would

Michelle Merritt: not. Um, so how you spend your money is not your employer's business. Correct. Nor is it their issue to compensate you for that. Right. Right. What is important is what you bring to the table and how you're going to impact the employer moving forward to make their investment in you a wise one.

Angela Gennari: Mm hmm. Yeah, agreed. Yeah, because I think that's one of the things that people get this idea of like, well, this is where I need to be financially, but that is a sliding scale. [00:31:00] Because if you make more money, you tend to spend more money. And so when does that stop? And so like, I know people who are making money.

Mm hmm. 50, 000 who are living comfortably. I know people who are making 250, 000 who are strapped. And so it really, it has to do with your spending and that should not play into, you know, how the employer determines your salary. So I can agree with you,

Michelle Merritt: but I do think that knowing your numbers, knowing what you need

Angela Gennari: to be

Michelle Merritt: able to afford the lifestyle that you want means understanding that number.

You don't need to share that with the employer. And the other thing I'll point out too is when an employer asks, where do you need to be? I never give a range. Okay. Right? Because if I give a range, what I'm telling the employer is if my range is in your 250 example, if my range is between 250 and 300, I'm telling you as the employer that I'll take the 250.

Uh, yeah, okay. So [00:32:00] instead I'm, I'm responding the one time it's okay to answer a question with a question, right? I'm responding by saying, you know, share, if you will give me the range of the position, I will, I'll be transparent with you as to whether or not I can make that work. And if so, if in our example here, you say to me, well, Michelle, my range is 250 to 275.

I, as the candidate may say to you. Okay, you know what? So you're aware I'm in the top end of your range, but I'm excited about the opportunity and would love to continue the conversation. Or if you said to me, our range is 2 to 210 and I know I can't accept under 250, you may, I may just be clear with you and say, you know, unfortunately, um, I am substantially above that and I don't know that we can fill that gap.

Both: But if

Michelle Merritt: another opportunity were to come open, that is a higher paid position, I'd love to talk about that. [00:33:00] Okay. Because there's no point in continuing, I'm all for interviewing and that kind of thing, but if you know ahead of time that you're a 50, 000 or 100, 000 gap on a 200, 000 roll, you know, that's a, that's a, that's a 30%.

Sure. You know, if you're really that far, it may be time to say, okay, you know, this isn't the right fit. Right. And look at the next one.

Angela Gennari: Right.

Michelle Merritt: Right.

Angela Gennari: That makes sense. Okay. Um, do you think women ask for lower than men? Yes. Salary? I do. I do.

Michelle Merritt: Know your numbers.

Angela Gennari: Yeah. Why do you think that

Michelle Merritt: is? I think they're afraid.

You know, they're afraid to look greedy. They're, they, they're willing to prove themselves, that kind of thing. So instead, let's say here is, here is what I bring to your organization. Here is how I will help your organization grow and make this a worthy investment.

Angela Gennari: Okay. Yeah. [00:34:00] I like that. This is what I bring to the table and this is where I feel I add value.

So I like that. All right. Very cool. So what, what tips would you give to somebody in an executive interview?

Michelle Merritt: Good question. So I would couple things I always do. Number one, treat it like a conversation, right? I'm always concerned when an executive interview is comprised of six questions that the interviewer gets to ask you and three questions that you're allowed to ask the interviewer.

That's a red flag for me.

Both: Yeah.

Michelle Merritt: If it's an executive level interview, you need this to be a conversation. The other thing I will say is understand your numbers. We've talked about that already and be able to articulate your accomplishments and your achievements. Have your resume ready, have your bios ready, all of those things.

Have your LinkedIn profile up to date.

Angela Gennari: Yeah, that's so important. I realize when I'm interviewing how many people do not have an updated LinkedIn. And it's really a, it's, it's something that I give them kind [00:35:00] of a mark against them.

Michelle Merritt: Absolutely. You know, your LinkedIn profile really is your online resume in many ways.

It helps you become searchable to people who might be out there looking for something. You know, we call those hidden jobs. You, I know are familiar with that term, but you know, these are the hidden jobs. These are the things that you don't know. They're not posted. And

Both: yet

Michelle Merritt: somehow your best friend got a job that you would have loved to have had.

But you never even heard about it. And it's because not all jobs are posted. People are out looking for candidates to fill the positions. that they're not even advertising. And LinkedIn can be a great way to be seen by people that you don't even know are looking.

Angela Gennari: That's very true. Absolutely. Very true. So I want to pivot really quickly to a whole different agenda, which is getting a seat on a corporate board.

So that's something that a lot of people aspire to do, especially once you've been in the C suite level, you're at the executive level, and now you want to take your career career. [00:36:00] Uh, up another notch. And so you want to go on to a corporate board. How does one do that? And then what are the expectations of that person?

So

Michelle Merritt: a couple of things to think about here. Number one is that 85 percent of corporate boards are found through people we know and through our network. Oh, interesting. Okay. So only about 15 percent of corporate boards place Candidates through recruiters or accept candidates through recruiters. So, you know, be mindful of that.

Start thinking about, especially as your as your career advances, what are the types of roles, types of boards, types of companies that you could benefit? From right so or bring benefit to I should say so, you know, let's say for example, you're a coo

Both: In

Michelle Merritt: an organization, you know, you're going to have those those operational That area of operational expertise that you can bring to a board So your network as you get to [00:37:00] know people And again continue networking even if you're not looking for a job keep your network active So that you're aware start letting people know I would really like to have my first board seat.

I would really like to engage with, and it might be in the beginning, an advisory role or an board observer role. It might not be as a board board director just yet, you know, where are the, maybe there are startups or smaller organizations looking for an advisor with your expertise. Maybe you come out of pharma, maybe you come out of technology, something like that.

Couple things to remember as a board member, right? They say nose in, hands out. Oh, so what, so that means we're nosing around, we're asking questions, right? The big picture questions, but the board isn't there to do things. The board is there to advise, right? So remember, and that can be the hardest thing for people to remember, but in the beginning is what their role really is.

Do you want to be involved with a startup [00:38:00] organization? Are you passionate about helping a startup? Maybe it's a tech startup that is. You know, has a background in the same industry that you have expertise in something like that. Do you want to do that? Are you looking for bigger roles and as you advance in your career, there are more and more opportunities for that.

Angela Gennari: That's great. Yeah. Cause I think, um, you know, not every corporate board has to be IBM, Google, you know, Apple, you can do corporate boards in many, many different ways. And I love the startup. You know, tech idea because like an entrepreneur, I'm an entrepreneur, a serial entrepreneur. So there's some things that, you know, things that I've definitely done in my, you know, building my businesses that would help a startup community.

So I think that that's very,

Michelle Merritt: you bet. And it might not be a startup. It might be something that someone's established.

Angela Gennari: Yeah.

Michelle Merritt: Right. But they're looking for a certain expertise and your network can help you uncover a lot of that.

Angela Gennari: Do you feel like there's more diversity on corporate boards now, or are we still struggling with getting [00:39:00] that diversity?

Michelle Merritt: Both. Um, we are seeing, we are seeing an improvement. Okay, good. we are seeing things like the New York Stock Exchange have a program, that will, you know, encourage their companies to diversify their boards, that sort of thing. Goldman Sachs, I believe, believe has an initiative out there in the next few years.

They expect 40 percent of their, board company boards will be, um, diverse. Wow, that's pretty. So we're, we're seeing, we're seeing large companies push for it.

Both: Mm-Hmm. But a lot

Michelle Merritt: of it is self-reported by the employer and a lot of, or by the company. And a lot of companies choose not to report. So we'd still have a long way to go.

Angela Gennari: Yeah.

Michelle Merritt: Yeah.

Angela Gennari: Interesting.

Michelle Merritt: And the other thing I'll point out about board seats is having a strong board resume. Right. So a board resume is different than an executive resume. Okay. Um, a board resume is oftentimes a single page, sometimes two page document, but it's really highlighting those [00:40:00] governance skills.

Oh, right. Interesting. And, and any board work you've had up to that point. community engagement, thought, leadership, all of those things. So making sure you have the right documents in place will make a difference too.

Angela Gennari: Oh, that's good. Good advice. Cause I, I didn't know that there was a difference between a board resume and a regular resume.

Oh, very interesting. So does volunteer work help out with a board resume? If you're on a vol, like if you're working with a, uh, uh, nonprofit, like, uh, would that help?

Michelle Merritt: I think having that experience can always be helpful. And I think it's great to show that you care about your community. We rarely see for profit boards.

Choose someone just because of a non profit experience,

Angela Gennari: okay,

Michelle Merritt: right now if we're talking about global Nonprofits that might be a little bit of a different story, right? But for your local small Volunteer [00:41:00] organization, it's probably not going to be enough So we really want to demonstrate your corporate expertise as well And that again is where starting in a board advisor capacity or a board observer capacity can make a big difference, too Yeah

Angela Gennari: So how do you even know about a board advisor position?

Michelle Merritt: It's a matter of networking. It's a matter of targeting companies. You know, getting to know companies that you're passionate about. Right. Ask, leveraging your network to let people know, Hey, I would be interested in that in a next step in my career. Right. I would love that opportunity. Do you know of anyone?

Do you know of organizations looking for an advisor in this capacity? Things like that. Treat it like you would a job search in many ways.

Angela Gennari: Very cool. So I'm going to pivot right now and ask a few questions. So who inspires you? So who

Michelle Merritt: inspires me? My husband's everyday day in and day out. That's awesome. So my husband is one of the [00:42:00] smartest people you'll ever meet, but he's also one of the most kind and generous people that you'll ever meet.

And that's true. That's a rare finding. Um, so Jason's, he's, he's an amazing human. Um, and I'm I'm just really fortunate that he, um, that he chooses our family every

Angela Gennari: day, day in and day out. That's wonderful. I love that. So, um, so as I was saying earlier, I always ask as women, we give our power away all the time.

Um, can you tell me about a time that you gave your power away?

Michelle Merritt: I can. So the first time I got what my parents probably would have called a real job out of school, right? Um, my, um, I did not know you could negotiate. And, um, I left about 10, 000 on the table, which at that time in 1990 something was a lot of money.

And, um, if you do the math, it's 1. 4 million over the lifetime of my career is what that comes out to be. If I had just taken [00:43:00] that extra 10, 000 and added that 10, 000 alone every year to my 401k, It would have been about 1. 4 million.

Angela Gennari: Wow. So put it in numbers like that. It really is shocking.

Michelle Merritt: Yeah. And that's, you know, for some of us, that's the number we're looking for.

Do we give ourselves permission to retire? Right. So, um, yeah, that one was that I learned early on. I didn't know that you couldn't go. I was so eager for that job that I just didn't know that I could ask for.

Angela Gennari: Yeah, well, and mine was when I, uh, so to, to that, to that, um, comment, I didn't know when I was younger that you could sell a company.

I had started my first company, but it was just kind of an accidental like, Oh yeah, sure. This is what I do. And you know, I had a whole business and when I was moving, people were offering money for like my contact list. And I was like, Oh no, no, no, it's it's fine. And I didn't know I could sell

Michelle Merritt: it.[00:44:00]

That has a value.

Angela Gennari: It sure does. So yeah, I learned that the hard way, but um, you know, second, third company later. So, um, anyway, so, so, uh, what advice would you give to your 18 year old self?

Michelle Merritt: My 18 year old self would be just to do it. Yeah. Right. You know, and that's probably something women say a lot, but, um, you know, I think that I was more consumed with what other people thought than what I thought.

Angela Gennari: Uh, yeah.

Michelle Merritt: Right. Yeah. And I wanted to be liked.

Angela Gennari: Yeah. And I

Michelle Merritt: think, I think we do tend to give away power when we are taught to be liked.

Angela Gennari: Yeah. I think that's just something we fall into that trap a lot as women. So definitely. So when building your business, you know, you created a successful business and then you just recently went through an acquisition.

What, what were the obstacles and challenges that you had in doing that?

Michelle Merritt: So I said I would never own a business. So having the business itself was an obstacle. My [00:45:00] parents are both business owners. My dad has owned an auto mechanics garage my entire life. He's been in the same building for the last 50 years.

My mom owns a residential cleaning company and has had a monstrous list of clients for years and years and years since I was 16. And I watched my parents go through the blood, the sweat and the tears. Sometimes literally of, um, of owning a business and, you know, just all that it took to start up two businesses and all of those things.

I swore I would never do it. And yet, you know, someone offered to pay me and here we are and all these years later it's worked out, but I swore I would never do it. So for me, accepting the fact that this was the right thing for my life and it really was the right thing for my life and it's clearly brought me.

To a very good place. Um, just accepting that I was a business owner was, was a hurdle.

Angela Gennari: Was it really? That's so interesting. I love that because, um, [00:46:00] I guess as, as a child of entrepreneurs, that, that makes a lot of sense. My son is, uh, you know, he's only ever known. Entrepreneurialism. And so I'm, I wasn't shocked when he said he wanted to go into the military.

I'm like, yep, that

Michelle Merritt: makes sense. Nice instruction.

Angela Gennari: So, well, uh, Michelle, this has been really, really informative. Just such great information. You are such a wealth of knowledge and I really appreciate everything. Well,

Michelle Merritt: thank you. It's been great fun.

Angela Gennari: Yes. And I just have one more question for you. What do you wish more people knew?

Michelle Merritt: About

Angela Gennari: anything you want.

Michelle Merritt: Oh boy.

Okay. What do I wish people knew? I wish people knew how to demonstrate confidence.

Angela Gennari: Oh, that's without arrogance. Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle Merritt: Right. So I think that we can overdo it.

Angela Gennari: Yeah, for sure.

Michelle Merritt: Right. And then be arrogant jerks. But then I also think that we [00:47:00] need to demonstrate confidence, right? Some people call it executive presence, but really understanding how we present ourselves.

And I always tell people, you know, in that moment,

Michelle Merritt: when you're, when you're leaning in, you may or may not like that term, but when you're leaning forward and you're starting to talk about yourself and your accomplishments and your achievements, um, you're going to get that feeling in the pit of your stomach that, Oh boy, I'm going too far.

This is uncomfortable. All of that. I need you to stay there and stay put. Don't pull back. Our natural instinct is to pull back. Um, I'm a Midwesterner, and I think as a Midwesterner, we're often taught to put our head down, do the work, and someone will notice, right? Don't brag about yourself, right? No. I want you to stay there and be willing to state clearly what you've accomplished and what it's worth.

Angela Gennari: Hmm. Very good advice. Well, thank you. Um, again, Michelle, you've just been so wonderful. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So how can people find you? So you connect with me on LinkedIn.

Michelle Merritt: the most easy place to do that. So you can find me and Michelle Merritt, um, on LinkedIn. So that's the easiest way, but DNS, um, DNS executive career management will take you there too.

Angela Gennari: Awesome. And then everyone, you can find Michelle on pretty powerful podcast. com. We will make sure all of her links and bio are up there as well. So thank you again, Michelle, and thank you everyone for joining us for another episode of the pretty powerful podcast. And we'll see you next time. Have a great day.

Intro: Thank you for joining our guests on the pretty powerful podcast. And we hope you've gained new insight and learned from exceptional women. Remember to subscribe or check out this and all episodes on prettypowerfulpodcast. com. Visit us next time, and until then, step into your own power.